Italian politician calls Prophet “pedophile”
Nov 28th, 2009 | By Joseph Mayton | Category: Europe, Featured, News
CAIRO: Italian political leader Daniela Santanche called Prophet Mohamed a “pedophile” in a speech earlier this month that has been circulating a number of anti-Islamic websites, which has resulted in continuing the detente between Europe and the Arab world, where insulting the Prophet is a no-no. The former model and current head of the Movement for Italy, Santanche, lashed out at Islam in a speech on Islam, but despite her argument that the Prophet is a pedophile, she said she has no qualms with the faith.
“This behavior by the man whom hundreds of millions of people regard as the exemplary standard of conduct (Koran 33:21) has brought suffering to untold numbers of women and girls,” she said of the Prophet.
Continuing, she argued that child marriage is “common” and in the places it is worse, Islamic law, or sharia, has been implemented. “The Nigerian government has tried to act against the practice, passing a law in 2003, the Child Rights Act, that set the minimum age for marriage at 18. Islamic clerics have been the fiercest opponents of this law: Imam Sani, a Nigerian cleric, explained: ‘Child marriage in Islam is permissible. In the Koran there is no specific age of marriage.’ Consequently, ‘the Muslim clerics have a problem with this Child Rights Act and they decried it, they castigate it, they reject it and they don’t want it introduced in Nigeria.’ If the government imposed the law, Sani said, ‘There will be violent conflict from the Muslims, saying that ‘no, we will not accept this, we’d rather die than accept something which is not a law from Allah’,” the Italian leader said.
Santanche gave the example of the Prophet marrying Aisha, who was underage at the time of their wedding, as a clear example of Mohamed as pushing the divorce rate up “given the words of the Qur’an about divorcing prepubescent women and Mohamed’s example of marrying Aisha, that in some areas of the Islamic world the practice of child marriage enjoys the blessing of the law.”
In Egypt, the government and religious leaders have been cracking down on underage marriages, with a number of men being arrested and jailed if caught. The ministry of family and population in the country has established a hotline for girls to call in case they feel they are being pressured into underage marriages.
Minister Khalil Mostafa said earlier this month that the government is currently preparing a draft law for Parliament’s upcoming session that would criminalize human trafficking of adults, similar to the current law for children trafficking. The new law also includes organ trafficking, which a number of local rights groups have reported is a major concern as Gulf Arabs come to Egypt and use their house workers to these ends.
Mostafa said that the marriage of a girl younger than “18-years-old from a rich Arab is child trafficking, unless the procedures, organized by the list of regulations of the notaries on the marriage of Egyptian to foreigners, were followed.â€
But, Santanche’s diatribe did not end as she argued that child marriage in the Islamic world is a direct response to what she called the teachings of the Prophet.
“Nigeria is not alone, either in the prevalence of child marriage there or in attempts at reform the practice. In September 2008, Moroccan officials closed 60 Koranic schools operated by Sheikh Mohamed Ben Abderrahman Al-Maghraoui – because he issued a decree stating that marriage to girls as young as nine was justified by Muhammad’s example,” she continued.
In 2006, Danish cartoons showing the Prophet wearing a missile as a turban led to massive demonstrations and violence against the Danish embassies in the region, where insulting the Prophet is seen widely as a topic not to be touched. The cartoons led to widespread anger and frustration against Europe, but had died down recently, until an Egyptian woman, Marwa el-Sherbini, was knifed to death inside a Dresden, Germany, courtoom.
With Europe and the Islamic world at odds, activists in Egypt and across the region are calling for a better means to communicate. One activist in Egypt told Bikya Masr that the Italian woman’s statements are likely to do more harm than good and were unnecessary.
“What are we supposed to think when you have politicians continuing to say these horrible things when they really know nothing of what they are talking about,” said Yussif Reda. “I just think Europeans need to take it easy and end this taking advantage of fears that seems to be a part of European politics these days.”
BM
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A few thoughts with respect to this lady’s remarks: If we Muslims would learn to simply ignore such inciting statemtents the urge to utter them would die a natural death.
And why not ask her what she thinks of the child marriages in the Hindu culture? After all they are over 1 billion too and it is a very common practice there. But I guess as they are not Muslims it is not of any interest for the propagandists and the puppet masters …
She is simply gutter … trash … ignore her.
Yet on the other hand the “Muslim world” is heavily to blame for the ignorance of the non-Muslims. I’ve received some 5 weeks ago a horrible hate e-mail with all kind of crap in it that is “allowed” according to Shari’a law.
The first example being (and I copy): “In the Muslim faith a Muslim man can marry a child as young as 1 year old and have sexual intimacy with this child.” The title of this beautiful essay is: “Joys of Muslim Women” and it is attributed to Nonie Darwish who is Egyptian, lives in America and changed her faith from Islam to Christianity. This mail is widely circulated in Republican circles as the absolute truth.
I forwarded this letter with the request to help me out with counter arguments knowing that this is not true to: Dar al Ifta (part of Azhar), Islamonline, Muslimbridges as well as to 2 known and highly reputable Sheikhs. Up until now as I’m writing this posting, I have NOT received an answer.
How should people who genuinly want to know more about Islam go about it? How should people like me, who don’t know the Shari’a by heart, go about spreading some true information i.e. countering such hate e-mails?
To all of us Muslims: I suggest we first look inside our house and fix what’s wrong – and there is plenty of work to be done! – before we get exited over some stupid statements by an ignoramus who just repeats some propaganda.
Happy Eid al Adha to all of you!
I agree with Eleanora. The best response is to ignore such politicians
Eleonora, you asked:
“How should people who genuinely want to know more about Islam go about it? How should people like me, who don’t know the Shari’a by heart, go about spreading some true information i.e. countering such hate e-mails?”
Are you saying you’re a Muslim who does not know what Sharia is? And yet you have typed a lengthy post attacking this Italian woman, simply because she DOES know full well what Sharia is? You attack her in classic ad hominem style (which most Muslims resort to when logic fails them) simply because she states the truth as stated by your own prophet?
If you want to know the truth about Sharia, simply go directly to the source of this information: your Q’uran and the Hadith. You can deny the comments of Western politicians all you like, but you cannot deny the words of Allah and your own prophet, which are written for the world to see.
You seem like a person who wants to see good things in Islam, when the truth is that there is Nothing good about it. I promise you, for every good thing you might find in the Qu’ran, there are 100 bad things. Islam is a stain on humanity. It brings poverty, ignorance, war, and discrimination wherever it goes. These problems come directly from the Qu’ran and Hadtih which you trust in so much. Read the Qu’ran, read the Hadith, and use your own brain if you want to know the dirty truth about Islam. It’s all in these books. Just read, use your brain, and think about what is written.
The problem with most Muslims is that they want to understand how to make dog shit (Islam) seem like a sparkling diamond. They want to find the goodness in it, even though they really KNOW that dog shit is bad and can’t possibly ever bring them anything useful. Then, when they seek answers from their Imam because logical thought starts creeping into their head (e.g. “But dog shit smells awful – how can I possibly like it?). Their Imam tells them that he LOVES dog shit, and they should too. He gives them a list of illogical reasons why dog shit is great (even though it stinks). He tells them that dealing with the digested waste that came out of a dog’s rear end may be tough at times… but it’s Allah’s will, and who are they to question it? If they ask any more questions, then Allah will get mad that they don’t like dog shit. The Imam imparts his final “words of wisdom”: that getting your hands dirty with dog shit will make sense only after the Muslim dies and is rewarded in the afterlife. So, at this point, our thick-headed Muslim trusts in his Imam’s words, and feels a sweet pang of relief. What on EARTH was he thinking about, questioning the value of dog shit!? Of course dog shit is fantastic! By Allah’s will, he will go back to celebrating dog shit once more with more vigor than before. For his lack of faith, he will attempt to spread dog shit across the world to make up for his sin. Those pesky infidels hate dog shit, but that doesn’t matter — he’ll give them some anyway, even if he has to force it down their throats!
But the infidels get angry when exposed to dog shit, because they KNOW exactly what smelly stuff dog shit is. The infidels have stepped in dog shit before and they didn’t like it one bit. They also realized that dog shit is very hard to wipe off one’s shoe, once it gets stuck there. The infidels think “Why is this Muslim jerk trying to give me a piece of dirty dog shit? Is he a moron? He seems convinced that this dog shit is good for him! But why would ANYONE like dog shit? I don’t think I can trust a person who wants to spread dog shit around the world!”
So, don’t hate this Italian lady, just because she recognizes Islam for exactly what it is. Instead, educate yourself about Islam by reading your Qu’ran and the Hadith. You know very well that no non-Muslim can rewrite those books. They stand for all time. Simply take out your original copies and read them from beginning to end. If you can find the few references made of ‘peace’ and ‘love’ amongst the hundreds and thousands that speak about war, death, rape, pedophilia, murder, you get a cookie.
If you are smart, then after reading, I guarantee that you’ll realize Islam is exactly what the Qu’ran and Hadith says it is — a dangerous and violent cult filled with abuse of women, children, and non-Muslims. However, if you’re not smart, then, like most Muslims, you’ll simply ignore all the proof in the Qu’ran and Hadith and keep rejoicing in dog shit till the day you die.
PS. Eleonora, if you knew more about the faith you blindly follow, you should already be aware that the Qu’ran/Hadith states that your opinion is worth far less than a man’s. According to Islam, women like you have no real say or opinion in such matters as this. Don’t you find it ironic that most people you’d call infidels know far more about Islam than naive Muslims, like you?
Educate yourself please. Imam’s are not smart men. Their only goal is to further the spread of Islam across the world. You do not need their corrupt advice to find answers, and you will get nothing useful from them. As I have stated, read your Qu’ran and the Hadith – everything you want to know is written there. Including all the stuff you refuse to believe about child marriage/sex.
If you call this Italian woman “an ignoramus” and a “propaganda spreader”, then just be prepared to call Mohammed and Allah these things too. She is simply stating the words from the Qu’ran as written by your own beloved prophet. You can argue that dog shit is the best thing since sliced bread, but you can not argue against that.
Open your Qu’ran and find the truth about all you want to know on Islam… if you are brave enough to discover what you will learn. I assure you it will be quite a shock!
From the Hadith:
Muslim (8:3309) – Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234)
Bukhari (62:18) – Aisha’s father, Abu Bakr, wasn’t on board at first, but Muhammad explained how the rules of their religion made it possible. This is similar to the way that present-day cult leaders manipulate their followers into similar concessions.
Muslim (8:3311) – The girl took her dolls with her to Muhammad’s house (something to play with when the “prophet” was not having sex with her).
Bukhari (6:298) – Muhammad would take a bath with the little girl and fondle her.
Muslim (8:3460) – “Why didn’t you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you?” Muhammad posed this question to one of his followers who had married an “older woman” instead.
Bukhari (4:232) – Muhammad’s wives would wash semen stains out of his clothes, which were still wet from the spot-cleaning even when he went to the mosque for prayers. Between copulation and prayer, it’s a wonder he found the time to slay pagans.
Bukhari (6:300) – Muhammad’s wives had to be available for the prophet’s fondling even when they were having their menstrual period.
Bukhari (93:639) – The Prophet of Islam would recite the ‘Holy Qur’an’ with his head in Aisha’s lap, when she was menstruating.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/025-Muhammads-sex-life.htm
Prophet Mohammed was a killer, looter, and the biggest terrorist we have ever seen in human history. Believe it or not, Muslims have been lying to non muslims for centuries. Everybody knows the truth about Islam now. Islam is not a religion, it is a cult and should be insulted by all humans.
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Hooray For Daniela!
A real heroine for western civilization and voice for all civilized peoples of the world in the struggle against the insane evil of izlam.
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I thought it had to be a non-Muslim writing this – it is actually quite funny (in an odd way)!!
Though to respond the Eleanora question regarding Sharia law and relations with an infant – a top Saudi cleric – only two years ago or so – declared that a man can take a wife as young as two years old. This is Sunni.
In the Shiite – you can actually Google the Ayatollah Khomeini’s comments on such things – I would prefer to refrain from saying what is written – but two years old seems to be the minimum age here as well.
In the Hadiths Muhammad also expressed interest in marrying an infant – but died before the marriage was to take place.
The problem here is that either the things which the Islamic Holy books say are true – or not true – it seems that we want to select only the more convenient ‘truths’ and leave the others.
Your Egyptian empire was the height of technology and science well ahead of the rest of the world.
It only took the introduction of Islam to destroy the most advanced civilization in history. Think about what the world lost when Islam conquered Egypt and what other great advancements we might be celebrating and crediting to Egyptians today.
But rather than celebrating your ancient civilization and great Egyptian advancements, you choose to celebrate Islam, an Arab religion that invaded your country, subjugated Egyptian people, and destroyed your great civilization. Why?
Haven’t you noticed when two people are fighting the loudest is the one who is getting a beating. IMHO this proves that we are seeing the end of the West they entered into the ultimate unwinnable war the Crusades. Bannana Republics didn’t do it tyrants didn’t do it finally an all out open war is not doing it. What is left is to talk up a storm by insulting Islam because they are losing BIG time. Eid Mubarak.
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Eleonora
Yes, child marraige is an issue in other religions/cultures, but Islam (the Ummah) is the only one expressly working to eradicate, through violent and other means, all other religions/cultures and replace them with an Arab religion/culture. That is why it is under ideological attack from within and without. But that is not the most serious problem. The Ummah thinks, rightly, that at the moment they have the upper hand in this endeavor. However, their provocations in and against the West will come back to bite them. The West is a sleeping giant that if disturbed enough will wake up. When Western Christians begin to understand the goal of Islam, and then to genuinly fear Islam, they will seek out leaders to protect their civilization. This is already beginning to happen in Europe. It is just the beginning, and it is unlikely that there is anything anyone can do to stop it, as the lack of central leadership in Islam is too diffuse for it to be controlled in any meaningfull way. On top of that, Islams’ holy books expressly condemns non muslims and commands believers to convert them, subjugate them, or to kill them. As non muslims are slowly made aware of the contents of islamic teaching the fear will only grow. The consequence of civilizational fear is a very terrible thing, as the history of Nazi Germany attests.
Ali, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
The crusades were defensive battles against Islam’s spread across Europe, finally stopped at the Gates of Vienna in 1683:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna
So check your history and get your FACTS in order before posting utter nonsense and lies.
And if what you say about whoever argues the loudest is losing, then that’s Muslims for sure. Non-Muslims needn’t argue loudly or result to name-calling and ad hominem attacks. Muslims resort to these tactics 100% of the time in a discussion. Case in point, you have just done it yourself.
Non-Muslims only need to quote the Qu’ran and Hadith to expose what kind of trash Islam really is. Unlike Muslims who can’t even do simple fact-checking before proving their ignorance by posting incorrect historical accounts on the internet.
Surely, if Islam was good, everyone would love it. Why, then, are there so many people who are against it? Use your brain. If Islam is hated by even one person, then it can not be perfect or divine.
You’re not doing a good job at appearing credible, Ali. So why should we have any faith in what you’re saying will come to pass? Judging by your penchant for completely missing the mark for accuracy and fact checking, I’d say the exact opposite is true. Islam is in its final death throes. It can’t stand up to the harsh scrutiny of the internet. People in the west know what this garbage is and Islam is getting criticized and shamed like never before.
Don’t worry, buddy. I’d be worried if I were in your situation too. Guess it’s a good time not the be a Muslim!
Eleanora
You say
“And why not ask her what she thinks of the child marriages in the Hindu culture? After all they are over 1 billion too and it is a very common practice there.”
Child marriage in Hindu culture when it was common was introduced to protect the Hindu girls from kidnapping, rape and therefore conversion by Muslim fundamentalists. Only married girls were spared such a life. And besides child marriage in Hindu culture is not as common as you purport it to be and the difference is that there is also a voice of condemnation when it does occur.
Yea and if you beleive this I have a bridge to sell you.
Me thinks Joseph Mayton , the writer of this article, is a spineless little weasel who pretends not to know the difference between wrong and right and prefers to smear Santanche rather than present the facts.
Muhammad wrote the marriage contract for Aisha when she was six (he was 54) and he consummated the marriage when she was nine. This is why millions of Mohammedan pedophiles believe they are doing nothing wrong when they rape girls as young as nine.
What’s important, is Santanche’s courage to say it.
Joseph Mayton, the cowardly little weasel, tries to put the blame on her, for telling the truth.
Political correctness is worse than aids, Joseph. Grow some balls!
[...] via Italian politician calls Prophet “pedophile†| Bikya Masr. [...]
islam is it’s own worst enemy. The call to warmongering, racism, slaving, looting, subjugation of women & non-muslims, deceit, murder, child rape & torture are all there in the koran and hadiths for everyone to see. People living in the ‘dar al harb’ (house of war) are becoming aware of these facts. The growing acts of terror by muslims around the world are just enforcing the demise of islam. The silence and non-action of ‘moderate’ muslims is helping to speed the process along just as nicely. This is not a war of religion vs religion, this is a war of common sense, human rights, freedom, and peace. Educated, intelligent people with a whiff of common sense are not going to be dragged into the backward, superstitious, nomadic desert tribe mentality of the 7′th century.
Dear participants
We should all be thankful to the bunch:
- “JonhB”
- “Bert”
- “Mohamed Shahid”
- “Cole”
- “Mo Daog”
- et al
for providing perfect examples of the hate, low-class gutter-language missinformation that should be ignored.
We should also be thankful to those who hired them to spread such venomous dirty trash on the web.
mohammed was a pedophile. i dont see what the problem is here, she is just stating the truth.
Telling the truth, can never be a problem.
Telling the truth, only upset dictators, ayatollas and communists
Telling the truth is the beginning of a civilization
Lying is the end.
Islam is the end of everything, except the lie.
Dear Eleanora,
You seem well educated and open minded. Several scholars and historians have decided that Aisha was not 9, but 18 when she married the Prophet PBUH and that the historical evidence from Bukhari may be wrong. Here is a link to one of these articles:
(http://www.youm7.com/News.asp?NewsID=35802)
Sorry, I don’t know where you are from, so I don’t know if you read Arabic. I will try to find one in English. What do you think?
Dear Eleanora,
Misinformation you say? Take this as a great opportunity to READ (as angel Gibriel told Mohammed as he squeezed the air out him). Maybe you can point out some specific misinformation uttered by ‘hate-filled, low-class gutter language’ rabble.
In the batte of truth, they score high using verifiable, credible facts . You present only Islamic fancy. And your name calling is standard fare for those who believe in Allah and the last day.
Yo mei! What do we have here from the Babylonian Talmud?
Sanhedrin 54b. A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.
Sanhedrin 55b. A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years “and a day” old).
Kethuboth 11b. “When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing.”
Sounds familiar? Yeah …
What do we learn from the website (http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm) of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group, one of the largest in the world?
“The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of ‘Jesus the Nazarene’:
2) He (Jesus) was sexually immoral …
Oooppssss!!!!
Hohn B get a life and go vomit somewhere else!
To “Egyptian”, I am sure an 18 year old would be playing with dolls. From your OWN HADITHS. I will repeat that, YOUR OWN HADITHS THAT GOOD MUSLIMS (oxymoron there) FOLLOW. These are 100% verifeid hadiths!!!! NOT FABRICATIONS.
“Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234
Narrated ‘Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah’s Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for ‘Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Truly, mulsmims lie and twist the facts as they see fit. Oh, wait, muslims are ALLOWED to lie in certain circumstances. It is called “Al Taqyya.†It allows and encourages Muslims to lie and deceive others in order to reach their ultimate objective which is submitting the world to Islam under Sharia Law. LOOK IT UP ON THE NET!!!! So if you are allowed to lie with the blessings of your prophet, how can we take ANYTHING YOU SAY as the TRUTH!!!!
Your most authentic Hadith collections, Muslim and Bukari, state he married her at six and started sexual relations with her at nine? You are using the Islamic deceptions just like you use the Mecca suras until the subject is totally brainwahsed and then you introduce the Medina Suras which have abrogated the early peaceful Mecca Suras when Mohammid was weak. As he grew stronger after his raids and battles and murders then he turned violent and vile…
Daniela Santanche should be awarded a medal of honor for her bravery in speaking the truth, but she didn’t state the whole truth about Muhammed.
Every Muslim must profess the Shahada “There is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger”. Muhammed ‘revealed’ the direct, immutable, unalterable word of Allah in the Koran.
The Koran (33:21) states that in the Muhammed, Muslims have “an excellent model of conductâ€. Muhammed is considered “al-insan al-kamil” or “the perfect man”. Muhammed set the standard of morality for all Muslims to follow.
But was Muhammed truly “an excellent model of conduct” and “the perfect man”? As recorded in the Islamic ‘holy’ texts for all the world to discover is that by any objective standard, Muhammed was far from being an excellent model of conduct.
The hard truth is that Muhammed was a sadistic sociopath, a murderer, a decapitator, an amputator, a torturer, a mutilator, a slaver and human trafficker, a kidnapper, a rapist and sex trafficker, a looter and a thief, a liar, a paedophile rapist, a sexual deviant, a genocidist, a self proclaimed terrorist, an evil man afflicted by unquenchable sexual lust, driven by an unquenchable thirst for power, and motivated by unending material greed.
Muhammed was perhaps one of the most vile and disgusting men in the pantheon of human history. He was nothing more than a successful Charles Manson. Muhammed should be reviled, not revered. And like Charles Manson, Muhammed should have been incarcerated, not venerated.
Every pathology that afflicts Islam can be traced directly to the examples, teachings and mandates of Muhammed.
Qur’an (8:12) – “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”
Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Muhammed…a sick and evil man……the archetypal role model for all Islamic terrorists…..the moral compass for all Muslims. Is there any wonder there is so much violence and hatred in the name of Islam today?
~The Infidel Alliance
Dear Egyptian
At least this I knew – with respect to Aisha’s marriage age. But I was not about to argue with crude keyboards hired by hate messengers so I left it out
.
You’re right my reading abilities in Arabic are way not sufficient but I would appreciate it if you have a link in English or German.
Thanks for the info anyway.
Marrying a nine years old girl at that time was perfectly normal, we all would have done it had we lived at that period in time.
You don’t need to be expert on Islam to figure out that it is a mistake and not logic or fair to judge incidents that occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago using our now days laws, rules and regulations.
I am sure some people in the far future will criticize our today actions and behavior.
Dear Charles – yr comment #30
Thank you for your rational and logic words. It is quite difficult to find in this forum full of “intellectuals and their pearls of wisdom” a voice of reason. What frightens me to some extent is the fact that the propagandists have achieved a remarkable level of brainwashed followers who blindly spit out what they have been fed with. Doesn’t say much for them though
.
What gets me at times is the fact that in ecumenic discussions (Judaism and Christianity) one is always considerate and reminded not to take actions, statements and rules out of context (that is naturally only the case if one is truly interested in an honest discurs). One is constanty reminded to see it in the wider picture of the then society, culture, circumstances, etc. which I personally see as a correct approach. This goes especially also for Judaism.
“Funny” enough the very same basic rules don’t apply when it comes to Islam. There everybody copies from the same sources so readily made available in the net and never forgets the name-calling, bashing and smearing. If it makes “them” feel better … be my guest. But it is quite interesting. It goes without saying though, that they always “forget” to provide accurate references and/or provide just part of it and “forget” the rest and the context conventiently.
Every topic has the right to be discussed in the right context and possibly without distortion und by referencing proper sources. It is a pitty that this is very seldom the case where it involves Islam and its followers.
Thank you again for your calming words and have a good day.
And when those 6 years old grow up and by mistake open their eyes once and look around they are subject to honor killing, another great Arabs’ muslims tradition
Muhammeds barbaric legacy is the 1,400 ISLAMIC WORLD WAR that rages on every continent except Antarctica, against everyone and everything “non-Islamic”. Let’s look at the facts:
Let’s look at the facts:
Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Christians in Indonesia (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- Australian tourists in Bali (blown up…twice)
- the Buddhists in Thailand (routine slaughter & beheadings)
- the Hindus & Sikhs in India (hundreds of years battling the Islamic Jihad)
- the Jews in Mumbai (slaughtered)
- the Zoroastrians & Baha’i in Iran (virtually exterminated)
- Islamic converts to Christianity in Afghanistan (death fatwa)
- ancient Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, Afghanistan (blown up)
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq (routine persecution, slaughter & church burnings)
- the Jews in Israel (routine attacks against civilians, threat of 2nd genocide)
- the Jews in Yemen (nearly exterminated)
- S. Korean & German tourists in Yemen (blown up)
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt (routine persecution, slaughter & church attacks)
- the Christians & animists in Sudan (genocide)
- the Christians in Kenya (constant Jihadist threat from Obama’s homies)
- the Christians in Nigeria (routine Jihadist attacks)
- U.S. embassies in Tanzania & Kenya (blown up)
- the athiests in Europe (the prime target)
- the native French in Paris (torched car terrorism)
- Jews in Paris (read the grisly story of Ilan Halimi, a Jewish shop clerk who was kidnapped, tortured and killed in 2006)
- the native Swedes in Malmo (Islamic rape brigades)
- the native Dutch in Amsterdam (routinely terrorized)
- Dutch politicians (Geert Wilders & Ayyan Hirsi Ali – death fatwa)
- Dutch cinematographers (Theo vanGogh savagely murdered by an Islamist in broad daylight)
- Dutch cartoonists (Kurt Westergaard – death fatwa)
- Dutch newspaper editors (Flemming Rose, Jyllands-Posten’s culture editor – death fatwa)
- Train commuters in Spain (blown up)
- Tube commuters in London (blown up)
- Airports in Scotland (blown up)
- Jews in Argentina (blown up)
- Jews in Caracas (blown up)
- Twin Tower office workers in N.Y. (blown up – twice)
- Defense workers in the Pentagon (blown up – airliner jihad)
- Army/Navy military recruiters in Little Rock (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Soldiers in F.t Hood Texas (gunned down by an Islamist)
- Pedestrians at the U. of N. Carolina (run down with an SUV by Islamist)
- Journalists like Daniel Pearl (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Nick Berg, Kim Sung-il, Piotr Stanczyk, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong, Paul Johnson (savagely decapitated by Islamists)
- Jewish centers in Seattle (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
- Jewish centers in Toronto (slaughtered by Islamist Jihadist)
And on, and on, and on……….
It is Islam against everyone, everything, everywhere that is not Islamic.
It is Dar al-Islam against Dar al-Harb. Them against us, not us against them.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – mandated by Allah & Muhammed in the Koran & Ahadith: Bukhari (8:387) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Let’s face the facts and call it what it is. It is not a ‘War on Terror’ against a few ragtag misunderstanders of Islam. It is nothing less than: THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.
THE ISLAMIC WORLD WAR – Muhaamed’s legacy.
~ The Infidel Alliance
To Thomas – yr comment #13
I take the liberty to recommend to you the following article: “By The SWORD or FAITH†to be found unter http://www.muslimbridges.org/content/view/315/. You’ll find information which you can verify independently with other (non-islamic) sources. In the same breath I recommend that you read one of the most significant Sura – at least IMHO – which is Sura 109 “Al Khafirunâ€. I always summarize it as follows: ‘you have your religion; I have my religion – we both go our ways’. That’s the end of the story of violently and forcefully converting people
which is invalid and not acceptable in Islam as opposed to Christianity.
You say: “On top of that, Islams’ holy books expressly condemns non muslims and commands believers to convert them, subjugate them, or to kill them.â€
Sorry – wrong. The Qu’ran does not condemn non-Muslims but it condemns strongly the “infidels†which means first and foremost as mentioned time and again in the Qu’ran those people who have the books (Jews, Christians AND Muslims) but do not adhere to their respective teachings. And yes, it also condemns the atheists as people who will go to hell – the very same as in the Bible and the Tora. Does anyone make a fuss about this statement in the other two books????
Muslims are supposed to tell non-Muslims about the core of Islam and its teachings and that’s that. There is no forced conversion in Islam. The missionary drive is not inherent in Islam nor is it a pillar of Islam as opposed to in Christianity. The point is: we always read about this forced convertions but the proofs are missing. Again I think because it is so common in Christianity they extrapolate onto other beliefs. My guess.
I would appreciate if you could lead me to the sura or verse in the Qu’ran where it says that a Muslim has to kill a person if he refuses to become Muslim. You are not mistaking this with the statemens of the various rabbis – the most outspoken being Ovadia and Shapiro – that the Jews should kill all non-Jews?
I would like you to reflect for a moment on the following question and maybe – if you’re interested – come back with some of your thoughts: why is it that the Islam question was never a real issue in its more than 1400 years … until some 15-18 years ago? After all there was a remarkable good understanding and a lot of common inter-religious projects up until the early 90′s.
The west is by far not asleep – on the contrary. Since decades it tries to impose the “McDonalds ‘n Coke†culture worldwide. Pure Islamic states have seen the forcing of churches upon them (see as best example the Gulf states) as well as a forceful change of their culture (be it in terms of ethics, moral values or banal issues as clothes and food stuff). The crusades today have partially more subtle forms via economic means but it doesn’t change the underlying aim.
And the ones bombing the heck out of people and killing innocent civilians by the hundreds of thousands in order to lay their hands on resources and/or land are to my knowledge not the Muslims either. It’s the west who brings “freedom and democracy†on the back of B52-bombers. At least that’s what it was last time I checked .
But maybe I’m all wrong, maybe I’m a victim of venomous Islamic propaganda and these bombers actually wanted to distribute biscuits and got by mistake the wrong load …
To Celine – yr comment #15
IMO you’re mistaken on two fronts, dear Celine. As we learned from history, child marriages in the Hindu society were very common LONG BEFORE ISLAM EXISTED and it IS STILL VERY COMMON in today’s Hindu society especially in rural areas.
So … if you don’t mind me saying so: revisit your ‘conclusiv argument’ which said “Child marriage in Hindu culture when it was common was introduced to protect the Hindu girls from kidnapping, rape and therefore conversion by Muslim fundamentalists.†and come up with something more solid, valid and true.
Your argument reminds me somewhat of the one of another participant who claimed in his ignorance that the crusades were defensive battles against Islam conveniently forgetting that crusades have also been waged against pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes. Although the participant consulted as final source Wikipedia he must have “overlooked†this part.
History is always a coin with two sides and we should not pick and choose which side we want to see. That is … if we want to be fair and adhere to intellectual honesty.
[...] in the Islamic world is a direct response to what she called the teachings of the Prophet… Full Story>> Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)No TitleThe marriage of Muhammad SAW and Aisha [...]
The “crusades” stopped officially at around 1700 to take a deep breath and continue with different means approx. 100 years ago – every other “registry of evil doing” pales in comparison and fades away into oblivion:
Virtual Truth Commission
http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/date.htm
The interested ones may have a look, stroll through the decades and read about the countless Holocausts, massacres and the “spreading of freedom and democracy” in the name of (un)Christian values and religion. These continuous attacks and interference in other states’ internal affairs, forcing the puppets of the West into the driver seat and oppressing the native people have naturally nothing to do with the todays state of world affairs!
Honnit soit qui mal y pense – as always!
Dear Eleanora,
I found an English article with references on the matter:
(http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm)
It makes the same point I told you about (complete with references). It also contains some interesting references indeed from the Bible about the marriages of King David, Abraham, and Mary to Joseph. Apparently, no one is insulting these Prophets for doing the exact same thing the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is being insulted for (if it is true).
Have a nice day
Dear “Egyptian” and “Eleonora”,
Sorry, we don’t buy your Islamist apologist propaganda and taqiyya. Unlike the Islamic world, the free world is fully literate and we know how to apply critical thinking, not just submit as is required in Islam. We can read Islams unholy books for ourselves and draw our own conclusions. We can see with our own eyes Islamic terror every day, inspired and mandated by the warlord terrorist Muhammed and codified in his war manual, the Koran and draw our own conclusions.
We all know that the peaceful suras in the Koran are from the first 12 years of Muhammeds “prophethood” in Mecca. After failing abysmally, he migrated to Medina where he finally found success by looting, stealing, raping, terrorizing, enslaving, mutilating and murdering.
We all know that the peacful suras are abrogated by the later violent suras, rendering them invalid. Thus, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that the core of Islam is not peace, love and tolerance, but war, hate and violence.
We all see every day Muhammeds Islamic jihad, with beheadings, murders, church burnings, cafe bombings, suicide mass murders, airliner attacks, kidknappings, rapes, car burnings, hand choppings, lashings, stonings, lynchings, and on, and on. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, has the DNA of a duck, it’s a duck.
Islam has been walking violence, quacking violence, looking violent, and violence in its DNA since Muhammeds days in Medina 1,400 years ago. Islam is violent at its core, despite your protestations of It as some kind of “religion of peace”.
No one has to insult Muhammed because Muhammed insults himself. Face it, Muhammed was a vile barbarian, a serial murderer, a sexual deviant, a mafia style looting stealing thug, a first class creep.
Can you honestly defend Muhammeds actions as moral? As higher virtues and values to be emulated in the modern world?
~The Infidel Alliance
P.S. – I notice Muslims never list Jesus or Buddha when they whine about Muhammed being “insulted”. Why not??
Infidel Alliance,
You are becoming very close to being removed from this list. You are simply spouting arguments that are on the fringe of violent insults that needs to be calmed. You also are giving nothing of substance to the conversation except ignorant analysis of Islam.
To Administration
While I do not at all intend to suggest to you or to interfere in who to remove and who not … I personally think it would be a great loss in terms of education if you would remove the “infidel alliance”.
S/he/they are the perfect example for either being brainwashed or for Neoconservative propaganda – the latter being pure adulterated trash. I have read these very same postings (almost verbetum down to the letter) time and again over the last 12 years in so called “true Zionist” forums as well as in orthodox Christian forums. Some of them are meantime closed by legal actions, others still “educate” their audiences. I do refrain from giving links as I do not intend to spread such hateful crap.
Interesting enough though that it follows always the same pattern: a “few” participants pop up of which some have “Muslim” names, then they spout insults left, right and center, resort to name calling, use a lot of feces in their language and feel good afterwards. Common to all of them in all the different forums are the following points: Aisha – Al Taqyya – quoting always the same stuff out of context – and since a few years the list of the attacks since approx. 2001.
But interesting it is and shows the true fabric of those “saviers of the word”
.
Leave them on the forum participant list if you don’t mind – we all need a laugh from time to time.
Have a good day!
Dear Admin,
You bravely chose to publish this article, which addresses many ugly issues: underage marriage & paedophilia, misogyny and oppression of women, human trafficking, Islamic Sharia law, and the Muhammed cartoon riots. You must expect comments that reflect the content of your article, right?
Please advise which of my specific comments constitute “violent insults”. None are “violent insults”, because they are simply verifiable facts and truths. I have not once called for violence and indeed reject violence – I don’t reject facts and truth however.
Additionally, none of my comments are an “ignorant analysis of Islam” – every single thing I have stated is backed up by Islamic sources and historical facts, and every Islamist knows it.
If anything I have posted is factually incorrect, I challenge anyone to disprove it. They can’t and they know it.
Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable (especially about Muhammed, who was after all a historical figure), but it remains the truth, and facts are facts.
If you are more interested in suppression on the facts and denial of the truth, then no one can stop you from engaging in censorship. But if you are interested in censorship, why publish an article like this and why have a comment section?
Best regards,
~The Infidel Ailliance
Addition to my posting #37
I forgot to mention that we should not leave the fact of the colonialist “adventure†by Europe out of the equation. After all they invaded and occupied umpteen countries – among them most if not all of the then Muslim countries. It goes without saying or me pointing it out one more time … how they forced the native inhabitants to become Christians. See e.g. the Philippines and so many black African countries.
Up until today none of these colonialists have ever given it an iota of a thought that maybe there is something from their past which still needs reconcilliation (?). Or even reparation? After all Europe is still paying a very heavy prize for the Nazi time in which all kind of people where persecuted, among them a big part being Jewish. Interesting her too that only the Jews get compensation and reparations. The Roma, Sinti, Catholics, Homosexuals, Socialists, Unionists et al don’t get anything up until today.
Or does such thinking of compensation and reparation – as always – not apply when it comes to Muslims? There one can do whatever the heart desires: colonialization, rape, torture, stealing the resources, stealing their land, imposing their religious symbols, tearing their cultures apart … whatever comes to mind? After all they are only Muslims and many of them just “dirty” Arabs…
It’s like in medicine: We should stop applying Aspirin and try to heal the root cause of the problems. Or if you prefer: every action triggers a reaction equal in magnitude and opposite in direction!
Dear Egyptian – yr comment #38
Thank you very much for the link. It is to be wished for that those truly interested in knowledge would read it.
I specifically like this statement: “After the Holy Prophet’s death, she acted as a teacher and interpreter of Islam, providing guidance to even the greatest of the male Companions of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. They made a special point of going to her to gain knowledge and seek her opinion. A vast number of sayings and actions of the Holy Prophet are reported from her in books of Hadith. She not only quoted his sayings and reported her observations of events, but interpreted them to provide solutions to questions. Whenever necessary, she corrected the views of the greatest of the Companions of the Holy Prophet. She made rulings and judgments on which Islamic law is based.”
And: ““Abu Musa said: Whenever there was any hadith that was difficult [to understand] for us, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, and we asked Aisha we always found that she had knowledge about that hadith.—
And: ““Musa ibn Talha said: I never saw anyone more eloquent than Aisha.—
Doesn’t it show very eloquently how much we women are oppressed in Islam and how little our opinion is valued
???!!!
As for not insulting these prophets … I guess it’s because their not Muslims
?!?!?
Have a nice day too!
Dear Eleonora,
It’s pretty repulsive that you would find all those heinous acts of violence around the world that I cited, and the vile actions of Muhammed would make you think “we all need a laugh from time to time”. I wonder how funny the hundreds of innocents killed in the Mumbai massacre would find this.
I challenge you to please disprove with specificity any of the “pure unadulterated trash” that I am posting.
You know you can’t because I will cite references for each and every comment straight from Islam’s ‘holy’ books. You know it’s in there in black & white, recorded for posterity for the whole world to discover.
How about this for a few starters:
Muhammed the Terrorist:
Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Muhammed the Rapist/Kidknapper/Sex Trafficker:
Koran (4:24) – “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”
Muhammed the Mutilator/Torturer:
Muslim (16:4131) – They were caught and brought to him (the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.
Muhammed the Barbarian/Torturer/Decapitator:
Ibn Ishaq 764: When he [Muhammad] asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr bin al-Awwam, “Torture him until you extract what he has.†So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad bin Maslama and he struck off his head.†(Note: This was done to the poor man so Muhammed could find out where there was more loot to steal, right??)
Muhammed the Sexual Glutton/Deviant/Pervert Driven by Unquenchable Sexual Lust:
Bukhari (62:6) – “The Prophet used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.”
And on, and on, and on……..
By the way, why did Muhammed have 9 or more wives and numerous sex slaves, but limited his followers to only 2, three or four? Were any of Muhammeds wives 6 years old? YES. Were any of Muhammeds wives the former wife of his adopted son? YES. Were any of Muhammeds wives a Christian slave girl? YES. Were any of Muhammeds wives the widows of a man he just murdered? YES.
FACTS about the barbarian Muhammed – straight from authoratative Islamic sources.
Muhammed – Res Ipsa Loquitur.
~The Infidel Alliance
““Musa ibn Talha said: I never saw anyone more eloquent than Aisha.â€â€
Aisha was a smart and eloquent little girl indeed. Bold too. She understood Muhammeds unquenchable sexual lust like no other. When commenting on Muhammed’s marriage to the ex-wife of his adopted son(Muhammeds 7th wife of 12 or 13), Aisha said:
“Truly Allah seems to be very quick in fulfilling your prayers.”
~The Infidel Alliance
Eleanora forgets one important thing.
yes, there are child marriages in Hinduism -but both, groom and bride are still children.
this is not case of islam, where can 80 man marry 10 year old girl. (SA)
or when 29 old husband make nikah by force of his 9 year old wife..(Yemen)
only to cite the latest examples.
No one for sure knows exactly what happened hundreds of years ago. We are not even sure what is happening right now with all the technology that are available on our hands. We have theories about the real reason behind some recent different past world events, for example Kennedy’s assignations, etc.
I assume the emotions become high when it come to discuss different religions, because it is a matter of faith. Faith is a belief that does not rest on logical proof, science or material evidence according to The American Heritage Dictionary. So, no one will change his/her position or convince others at the end of the day.
All the bad news that we hear, see and read everyday, strengthen my believe that the world would be much better place where barriers that divide people (countries, borders, religion, possessions, etc.) do not exist.
typical muslim logic. if child marriage is present in hindu society also, then i must not feel too much ashamed about my prophet acts ? isn’t it ?
well my friend, 2 wrongs dont make 1 right. by the way, the prophet liked the little girl very much. its in the Holy Koran. its even mentioned that he received many of its revelations while in bed with the little girl. guess Gabriel also liked aisha !.
Well, faith is a belief that lacks proof. So does ideology or any notion about future of human life.
Once we were told that a society can be build on REASON. Examples include Soviet Gulags and killing fields of Cambodia.
About faith of Islam: I would be more convinced if Muslims took to the streets against islamic terror, with the same same intensity as they took to the streets against Danish cartoons or the pope quoting an obscure Byzantine emperor. If this doesn’t happen, any assurances and explanations that Islam is a religion of peace, will remain terribly unconvincing. In the same way Muslims should take to the streets to protest slavery in countries such as Sudan, or against circumcision of women and other forms of sexual slavery. If this happens, I will start taking seriously all the explanations and sympathize with disdain for Daniela Satanche.
I knew nothing of Islam except for one Muslim businessman that lives near me. My business dealings with him have been near to the same as with others. With the news coverage of 9/11 and the Iraqi war, I became curious to investigate the religion of Islam. In order to not get a skewed viewpoint in my research, I went straight to the Qu’ran, Ishaq and Bukhari. I have not read every word of these texts, but I have read enough and I must say that I have come away with a sense of revulsion at the bloodshed in the name of “God” and of the killing of who knows how many in the name of a religion of “peace”.
Not only that, but the writings seem to indicate that whoever does not conform or submit to Islam would be classed as a second or third class citizen at best, and beheaded at worst.
The Muslim man with whom I do business has no notable theology as that which I have described above. On the contrary, he has been a regular guy to me and to others. The “authorized Islamic texts” that I have read indicate that this businessman is possibly guilty of not being a “real” Muslim in which case the “genuine” Muslims would be obligated to behead him.
So, my question would be: Why would any sensible person want Islam for a religion? Isn’t there enough bloodshed and violence in the world without adding to it?
Eleanora
Perhaps you had missed my last point where i stated that when child marriages do occur in Hindu societies, there is also a strong voice of condemnation within the society to those who campaign to eradicate it. Do you ever see any Muslim in authority speak against child marriages in Muslim societies? On the contrary, every once in a while some Imam or Mullah goes on abou how it is okay.
Celine – your comment #52
No I didn’t miss it – I just thought it not necessary to address. The same voices do exist in the Muslim societies. And? In both societies they don’t make a difference – yet! It simply didn’t sit right with my sense of fairness that you tried to portray it in the Indian society as something which happens every now and then in a blue moon whereas the opposite is the case; it is still very frequent. And yes, it is simply plain wrong BUT this applies to every society in which this tradition still exists.
I do believe that this kind of work (eradication of certain behaviour based on old traditions and cultures and detached from religions) can only be tackled with tedious and repetitive work i.e. education and setting examples by ourselves. And yes, why don’t you check out what authoritative people like Sheikh Qaradawi, Abdel Soubour Shaheen, Moez Masaoud et al have to say to certain practices of the past?
By singling out certain religion(s) for political gain and bashing and smearing them we do not achieve anything. And that’s exactly what’s happening today with Islam. The Muslims have become the Jews of the 20th/21st century and the “educated and humanistic” West is one more time leading the campaign. All déjà -vu over the last centuries, culminating with the excesses of the Nazis and yet the lessons have not been learned nor heeded.
A simple question (which I think is fair) is boggling my mind: if it were soooo rampant in Muslim societies throughout the world why is it then that we so seldom hear about it? That cases like the one in Yemen goes through the world MSM shows in a very simple way that it is NOT common practice. But people are to blinded by hatred and propaganda to see this.
To Esmaat- yr comment #47
Would it ever come to your mind to blame and smear Christianity if an 80 year old man marries a 20 year old girl? Or Judaism if a 79 year old man marries an 18 year old girl? Why is it that the odd cases only attract condemnation and smearing of a whole religion (some 1,5 Bio people after all) if it concerns the Muslims? No, I don’t expect a meaningful answer.
To Charles Darwin, your comment # 48
Most thoughtful, meaningful words of this discussion!
To Omar – yr comment #50
Would you accept a comment questioning the peaceful nature of Christianity per se and its followers because we never see masses taking to the streets in protest against the Christian terror and oppression inflicted on the co-Christians as well as on the non-Christian world? Against the terror and life-long suffering inflicted on Christian women through FGM (female genital mutilation) by Christians? Against the rampant sex trafficking throughout the Christian world?
Would you accept a comment questioning the peaceful nature of Judaism per se and its followers because we never see masses taking to the streets in protest against the Israeli terror inflicted on the non-Jews? Against the terror and life-long suffering inflicted on Jewish women through FGM (female genital mutilation) by Jews (Beta Yisrael)? Against the rampant sex trafficking?
~*~*~
It still leaves me kind of “flabbergasted” every time I read such kind of arguments. “We” do take the right to condemn, vilify, question the integrity of and smear and bash 1,5 Bio people because of the wrongdoings and wrong interpretations of a few = the extremists. It must be wrong because the “West” can never be at fault.
Yet if “we” would do the same i.e. measure the Christian and Jewish societies based on the doings of their extremists then lo and behold the whole world lands on “us”! Animal Farm?! Political need to further certain agenda(s)?
It is amazing how some “alliance†(and this includes the whole bunch) pops-up and puts in posts like the ones we see flying all over this forum and then demands on top of it to be addressed.
How can one seriously and with intellectual integrity rationally address propaganda material which in all likelihood comes from the owner of the Atlantic Monthly (Prof. emeritus Bernard Lewis), Daniel Pipes, Levy-Cohen, Broder, Horowitz, et al?
The “alliance†has one and one intention only as we can clearly see from their postings: to irritate, to aggravate, and to try via negative provocation to trigger some “out-of-the-belly†response.
As a side effect the “alliance†can live out its obvious hate against a religion which is growing and growing – and this growth is not based on the Sword and forced conversion like it was the case with Christianity. Or as it was the case with the people of Ashkenaz who had to convert to Judaism because their King became a Jew.
As the Christian Monitor stated alarmingly a few years ago – over 1 million Americans did convert to Islam in the course of two years after 9/11. Why? Always according to CM: because they wanted to get to know what horrible religion this was, started reading among other things the Qu’ran and … the rest is history. (I can not verify the veracity of this figure; I’m just quoting from a statement of CM)
I am surprised that so far nobody has come up with tit-for-tat answers in posting all the atrocities over the past 2’000 years committed by the “Christiansâ€.
Or with all the horrible, bloodthirsty, heinous and horrendous quotes from the Old and New Testament. Congratulations to all participants for their discipline and for ignoring this trap.
I think it shows quite clearly the difference between intellectual integrity in a discussion and spitting hateful propaganda.
~*~*~
I can’t help but wonder if the “alliance†knows the saying: “If you find yourself in a hole stop diggingâ€.
Administration to the “allianceâ€:
“You also are giving nothing of substance to the conversation except ignorant analysis of Islam.â€
“alliance†responds to Administration:
“Additionally, none of my comments are an “ignorant analysis of Islam†– every single thing I have stated is backed up by Islamic sources and historical facts, and every Islamist knows it.â€
For those who need an example – one of “alliance’s†knowledgeable analyses which, according to him, are backed up by Islamic sources and historical facts:
“We all know that the peaceful suras are abrogated by the later violent suras, rendering them invalidâ€.
He just fails to reference which Islamic Authority/ies is/are backing up his claim – which he wants to sell as a FACT – that parts of the Qu’ran are no longer valid. Officially invalidated.
Maybe he can enlighten us?
~*~*~
As a last note and with respect to his comment: “I wonder how funny the hundreds of innocents killed in the Mumbai massacre would find this.â€
I assume they would find it as funny as the Millions of innocent victims accross the field of all religions killed at the merciful hands of the Christian-Zionists. The Millions of innocent Muslims who did not survive the tender loving care administered unto them by the Christian-Zionists via White Phosporus bombs, DU Ammunition, Napalm and Cluster Bombs and/or via siege and starvation.
But then … as one ranking officer of the US Army said so pointedly: “One American life is worth 10’000 Somali lifesâ€.
I rest my case.
Dear Eleonora & Egyptian (and anyone else),
This article is about Muhammed.
Previously, I made an expanded analysis of Muhammed based on Islamic sources.
I stated the facts show that Muhammed was a killer, torturer, thief, decapitator, mutilator, amputator, rapist, sex trafficker, slaver, slave trader, child rapist, kidknapper, looter, liar, sexual deviant , serial murderer, genocidist and self proclaimed terrorist. I stated that by any objective standard these are the actions of a vile, disgusting, reprehesible human being.
I asked for someone to refute these facts, and my analysis. No one seems willing to do so. It seems it is impossible to reconcile the actions, teachings and mandates of Muhammed with the modern world.
How….how can Islam uphold Muhammed as some kind of virtuous ‘holy’ man, when objectively he was clearly a sadistic sociopath? Is there no Muslim out there bold enough to defend their barbarian prince?
Islam is clearly built upon 2 great lies:
1) Muhammed was a virtuous ‘holy’ prophet
( when in fact he was just a brutal criminal barbarian thug.)
2) Islam is a ‘religion of peace’
(when it’s most important tenenant – Jihad holy war, mandated by Muhammed – is responsible for death, destruction, oppression, subjugation, and suffering of millions of people all around the globe, wherever Islam intersects with any other non-Islamic culture)
Comments please.
~The Infidel Alliance
>Would you accept a comment questioning the peaceful nature of Christianity per se and its followers >because we never see masses taking to the streets in protest against the Christian terror and >oppression inflicted on the co-Christians as well as on the non-Christian world?
Oh yes. If Christian terrorists were exploding themselves and killing many innocents I would demand it!.
Especially if at the same time Christians organized aggressive demonstrations and death threats on some minor things such as a quote from an obscure Medieval text. It would help non-Muslims to believe that what is written in Koran about striking terror (8:60), friendship to other religions (5:54; 41:14), etc. is no longer applicable. If you see “Christian terror” go against it. The only recent “Christian terror” I am aware of is the Regensburg address by the pope. Please, attack “Christian terror” at least verbally. But for God’s sake, go against the Islamic terror too (if you can see it).
>It still leaves me kind of “flabbergasted†every time I read such kind of arguments. “We†do take the >right to condemn, vilify, question the integrity of and smear and bash 1,5 Bio people because of the >wrongdoings and wrong interpretations of a few = the extremists.
I don’t vilify or condemn you. I want an outrage over “a few” extremist to be equal your outrage over the pope. Is it too much to ask?
And then it hit me like a “blitz” – I suddenly got a possible answer by remembering an article in the Ha’aretz resp. on presstv israel:
“Israel’s Immigrant Absorption Ministry says it is recruiting an “army of bloggers” in the aftermath of the military operation in Gaza.” (http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=82951§ionid=351020202)
I can’t help but wonder if they couldn’t get anything better than what we see here?
Dear Eleonor,
You posit: “The “alliance†has one and one intention only as we can clearly see from their postings: to irritate, to aggravate, and to try via negative provocation to trigger some “out-of-the-belly†response.”
No, Eleonor, my only intention is to expose the truth, with facts, to end Islam’s reign of terror.
You posit: “one of “alliance’s†knowledgeable analyses which, according to him, are backed up by Islamic sources and historical facts: “We all know that the peaceful suras are abrogated by the later violent suras, rendering them invalidâ€. He just fails to reference which Islamic Authority/ies is/are backing up his claim – which he wants to sell as a FACT – that parts of the Qu’ran are no longer valid. Officially invalidated.
Maybe he can enlighten us?”
Eleonor, here’s your enlightenment:
Meccan Sura Koran (2:256): “Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out from error”
Medinan Sura Koran (8:39), which abrogates Koran (2:256) – “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”
Eleonor, you ask: “I am surprised that so far nobody has come up with tit-for-tat answers in posting all the atrocities over the past 2’000 years committed by the “Christiansâ€.”
Here’s your answer:
Free thinking, objective people understand and acknowledge that there have been atrocities committed by Christians. But when a Christian murders, steals, rapes or enslaves, they do so in direct contravention to the life examples and teachings of Jesus (the “Christ” of “Christianity”). The same can be said of Buddhists and the Guatama Buddha as well.
When an Islamist murders, steals rapes or enslaves, however, they do so in direct accordance with the life examples, teachings and mandates of Muhammed (the founder of Islam).
Eleonor, it is clear that a philosophy that demands “submission” as Islam does, is antithetical to a philosophy that grants “freedom”. It is also clear that the biggest victims of Islam are Muslims themselves, denied freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of thought – for they must “submit”.
~The Infidel Alliance
P.S. – I’m still awaiting your refutation of the truth about Muhammed.
*****“We†do take the right to condemn, vilify, question the integrity of and smear and bash 1,5 Bio people because of the wrongdoings and wrong interpretations of a few = the extremists. It must be wrong because the “West†can never be at fault.*****
Here you have response to many of your games:
http://thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Games-Muslims-Play.htm#islamnotviolent
I’ll ask again:
Was Muhammed, with his murder, rape, looting, thievery, sexual slavery, kidknapping, pefidy, torture, mutilation, decapitation, child rape, slavery, genocide and terrorism “an excellent model of conduct” as the Koran declares?
A simple “YES” or “NO” question.
~ The Infidel Alliance
To Omar – yr comment #58
You write:
“Oh yes. If Christian terrorists were exploding themselves and killing many innocents I would demand it!.†…and … “only recent “Christian terror†I am aware of is the Regensburg address by the pope.â€
Nothing else counts for you as terrorism?! I admire your selective memory. You mean to say that oppressing and occupying people and whole nations, that bombarding countries back to the stone age is not terrorism, that imposing puppets who oppress their own people is not terrorism? If not, what then is terrorism? … I don’t go into the definition of terrorism as I do believe you know it.
As for Sura 8, vers 60 – why don’t you care to quote the verses before and after? The ones before are talking about those who break a contract, about treason – the ones after it, especially 8:61 talks about “if they resort to peace … resort to peace tooâ€. Because they don’t fit the (your?) bill? It does not call for “terror†in a vacuum as you are alluding to.
I have written time and again against the exesses of extremists of all couleurs over the last 12 years. And I still do. I am in no need to justify myself towards anyone. But I do not join the chorus of “I demand that moderate Muslims must protest against their extremists†in order to proof that I am a “good†Muslim as long as I don’t hear the same demand from within Christian and Jewish societies going against their own extremists rather than only and exclusively going against the Muslims … or Arabs … as these two points are time and again intermingled and confused.
Is this too much to ask for?
PS I was not outraged over the pope’s statement. Read my first comment and you know what I think about this sort of statements. I do believe in true freedom of expression whether it is convenient for me or not – I do attack propaganda though.
Eleonora, I have recently become curious about FGM and I wonder if you might be able to help. I understand that FGM is practiced among Jews, Christians and Muslims but whilst Jews and Christians do it for cultural reasons, Muslims do it in the name of their religion. I understand that some 90+% of Indonesian Muslim girls are mutilated on the Prophet’s birthday each year, is this true ? I read somewhere about some Islamic holy person saying that female sexual desire should be reduced but not removed, do you know whether there is any truth in this ? I also understand that this act is carried out in Egypt (more than another country) but also Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya, Gambia, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Ghana, Iraq, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and many more countries that may have slipped me, many of these countries are predominantly Islamic. Do you know whether there is any truth in Islamic cultures believing that in removing the woman’s desire to enjoy sex, you protect her honour and that of the men in her family.
It really sticks in my throat that little girls are mutilated in ignorance because of religion but more importantly why isn’t this out in the open? I have read a few books by Nawal El Saadawi but she seems to be a one woman brigade.
Lastly, I think it is extremely disrespectful to trash another person’s religion in such a brutal way. Islam is the source of peace and comfort to millions of people the world over. We can all disagree without being disagreeable. So can we all stop with the insults. It’s not necessary.
>Nothing else counts for you as terrorism?! I admire your selective memory. You mean to say that oppressing and occupying >people and whole nations, that bombarding countries back to the stone age is not terrorism, that imposing puppets who >oppress their own people is not terrorism? If not, what then is terrorism? … I don’t go into the definition of terrorism as I do >believe you know it.
Christians or secular regimes never occupied Saudi Arabia, but Muslims conquered and occupied Christian lands from Spain to Byzantium. Don’t try this game. Even if you include British colonialism as “Christian” you would have hard time to prove a 1000-year occupation anywhere. Terror goes into the heart of the problem.
Eleonore,
are these people inspired by your faith? You probably don’t care about those “few extremists” who will never find any verse to condemn terror.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_kyNIevsIs
To Omar – yr comment #63
(exerpt from you posted link)
“There is some evidence that verse 2:256 may not have been intended for Muslims at all, but is instead meant to be a warning to other religions concerning their treatment of Muslims. Verse 193 of the same Sura instructs Muslims to “fight with them (non-Muslims) until there is no more persecution and religion is only for Allah.” ”
See Omar this is exactly why I call such sites propaganda. It omits and leads the readers to (wrong) conclusions. From the psychological text book point of view this method it is quite interesting and revealing though.
Out of context in a vacuum we read this horrible instruction. How does it look in the context?
Vers 191 says: “Don’t fight against them at the holy mosque unless they fight against you. If they fight against you then kill them.” (Makes somehow sense to me or should they wait to be killed?)
Vers 193 says: “….If they stop [the fighting] then there must be no transgression anymore exept against those who do injustice”. (Bear in mind that I translate from the German translation – it might not be 100% verbetum)
Now tell me honestly: who is playing games?
>“There is some evidence that verse 2:256 may not have been intended for Muslims at all, but is instead meant to be a >warning to other religions concerning their treatment of Muslims.
Something like in the video above. Threats to entire Denmark because it has a freedom of speech. Threat to everybody else who is non-Muslim (Spain, UK, USA, Japan, you name it). Whatever is written in your Koran, I am less and less convinced when I see such outbursts of hate.
But Omar those Jihadi nutters are not representative of all Islamic people. Personally, I think they took it way too seriously but they respect their religion in the way that some other faiths don’t. If Islam does not want to modernise themselves then that is their right. Just because Christians say jokes about Jesus and make films such as “Life of Brian” it doesn’t mean that every other race and faith of people should be amenable as well.
What does concern me (however) is when some extremists are given a “platform” in the name of Islam and the God fearing peace loving Muslims sit back and watch without condeming these jackasses who are effectively inciting hate and violence.
To Omar – yr comment #66
Chilling video! And a great quality with respect to understanding what they say – good technology as normally in such demonstrations the sound is the first thing to go.
I wonder how much these “leaders” were paid to stand so photogenically in the right place.
Much more do I wonder why these inciters were not arrested as the UK has a number of laws in place which would allow for their arrest. Strange.
As for your posting #65:
What does Saudi have to do with our discussion? But I learned at least one thing from your posting: terror is only terror if it last 1’000 years. Aha.
>>“There is some evidence that verse 2:256 may not have been intended for Muslims at all, but is instead meant >to be a warning to other religions concerning their treatment of Muslims.
>Now tell me honestly: who is playing games?
Honestly, I don’t believe that Islam is persecuted in the West. I do believe that Christians cannot build churches in Saudi Arabia, or even carry a Bible. You don’t find a problem with this, I guess. When I read about Egypt, Nigeria,
India, Indonesia etc., usually Christians are on the receiving end of violence, not the other way around. I can go on and on. We are talking of atrocities of civilians on civilians. You are unable to be honest.
To jjb – your comments #64 + 69
Sorry jjb, but it’s very late here – can I come back to you tomorrow? I promise a sound answer as good as I can
.
I love your expression “jackasses”
Sleep well
>Just because Christians say jokes about Jesus and make films such as “Life of Brian†it doesn’t mean that >every other race and faith of people should be amenable as well.
Non-Christians feel free to attack Christianity because they will not receive death threats in return (Christianity prohibits that. How about Islam?).
Before I go to bed a quick definition for Omar and others of “What’s a terrorist” so we all have the same starting line (a definition I picked-up some years ago and unfortunately didn’t copy the source so I cannot properly reference it):
What’s a terrorist
Based on the simple things I learned from elementary school, I try to define the word, ‘terror’. I look up the word in the dictionary: Here is the first definition given by the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (Fourth Edition, 2000): ‘Intense overpowering fear’.
Thus I define ‘terrorist’ as the one who instills terror into the hearts of people.
“Wait a minute†(I hear a shout), “in that case, the policemen are terrorists as they instill terror into the hearts of thieves.â€
Yes, that is right. So we must limit the scope of the definition to exclude the policemen. And I re-define ‘terrorist’ as the one who instills terror into the hearts of others for political purpose.
“Hold it.†(Again a shout of protest). “In that case all the rulers who use their forces to wage wars are terroristsâ€.
Yes, indeed! I should have thought of that. Certainly we need to exclude them. So I must re-redefine ‘terrorist’: One who instills terror into the hearts of others for religious purpose.
This time, I do not hear any shouts. No, there is a shout; a bit delayed though: “In that case the Zionist Jews who kill Muslims, and the Christian Right who support the killings must be terrorists. But you know, they are men of peace.â€
That is perfectly right. I never thought of that.
So I must re-re-redefine ‘terrorist’: How about this one? A terrorist is a Muslim who instills terror into the hearts of others.
There was a long hiatus and it seemed finally accepted. But then there was a feeble motion after a long silence: A Muslim only does this when he himself is terrorized by the act of others upon him. This is what every other human being would do too.
This is perfectly true. So I must re-re-re-redefine ‘terrorist’. I came up with this: A terrorist is a Muslim.
No more shouts of protests … not even from the Muslims!
Thus finally we arrived at the right definition, and now we have no doubt who ‘a terrorist’ is.
But Omar at #73 – it isn’t about disrespecting Jesus or his mother and being able to get away with it, it’s about having respect. I don’t know which part of the world that you hail from but I can tell you the country that I was born and raised in (UK) used to be God fearing and in times gone by you couldn’t freely say rude things and get away with it, even if it was a joke.
But as society has modernised itself, it gave everyone freedom but that freedom has come at a price because it has no boundaries. A society without boundaries is a fragmented society and much of the societal ills plaguing my country is because of lack of boundaries or controls. We used to be a strong Christian country, now you get children growing up that do not know how to pray, don’t know the meaning of Christiaity and couldn’t care less either way so it is easier much easier to throw insults at your religion and OTHER PEOPLES RELIGION and feel that it is okay. It isn’t and that truth hits home when other faiths stand up and defend what they believe in. Whilst I do not condone the video, please do not knock these people. They are doing what we Christians in the West have failed to do, hence why much of our communities are in wrack and ruin.
>can tell you the country that I was born and raised in (UK) used to be God fearing and in times gone >by you couldn’t freely say rude things and get away with it, even if it was a joke.
Again. If somebody like Ayaan Hirsi Ali speaks out her mind and her life is threatened or Theo van Gogh records a short documentary and he is killed, I don’t want such religion. I don’t want any society which prohibits humans to express their opinions, even such thugs as those in front of the Danish Embassy. I am not surprised that you and Eleonore both wondered how British law allows that. Islamic law would not. Isn’t it the reason why Islam lost its creative powers some time in the XIIth century when Muslims secured majority in conquered Christian lands? A second class citizens: dhimmis, had little choice but to join the party to be equals.
As Eleonor obfuscates, dodges & dances, we are still waiting for the answer:
Were the examples, teachings and mandates of Muhammed “an excellent model of conduct” as the Koran proclaims, and virtues worth emulating?
Yes or no??
Will some Muslim or Infidel out there have the courage to answer this simple question?
Eleonora?? Egyptian?? Omar?? JJB??
This article is about Muhammed and the impact he had on Islam (misogyny, human trafficking, cartoon riots, etc) . Why won’t anyone stand up and defend Muhammed??
Perhaps the answer is because Muhammeds examples, teachings and mandates are indefensible and everyone knows it.
Eleonora, you ask “What’s a terrorist?” Why don’t you look to Muhammed for the answer? He clearly knows, as he was the archetypal Islamic terrorist. He even boasted about it: Bukhari (52:220) – Allah’s Apostle Muhammed said… ‘I have been made victorious with terror’
Muhammed: The sadistic, sociopathic, murdering, decapitating, amputating, torturing, enslaving, raping, stealing, looting, sexually perverted, genocidal, terrorist Prince of Islam. The Guiding Moral Compass of Islam. The excellent model of conduct for all Muslims. Islam’s “perfect man”.
Any defenders of Muhammed out there?? Didn’t think so.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Good for her! It’s about time someone called a spade a spade. Note how the comments here start out with a nasty and hateful Muslimah turning around and calling this brave woman “utter trash.” Such endearing words! Islam makes people soooo civil – and cute and cuddly too!
Muslims just can’t for one moment understand why moral people would object to calling a man who repeatedly raped a 9-year-old girl a “prophet of God.” I’m sorry, but that is a complete and total insult to God, and I’m disgusted that so many people on this planet are so brainwashed by Arab propaganda that they have completely lost their innate morality and sensibility.
Time to wake up and become true human beings by rejecting these heinous ideologies that teach such human-hatred and woman-abuse as does Islam.
Beyond the issue of Muhammed as a paedophile, this article raises some interesting side issues:
The article states “insulting the Prophet is a no-no.” Is telling the truth about Muhammed, referenced from Islamic sources, considered “an insult?” Why?
The article continues, stating “Santanche, lashed out at Islam”. Again, is speaking the truth, backed up by Islamic sources, considered “lashing out?” Why?
Further, the article ccharacterizes Santanche’s comments as a “diatribe” (An abusive, bitter denunciation). Is it really a “diatribe” if her comments were truthful, backed up by numerous sources, including authoratative Islamic texts? Why?
Finally, the article posits: “With Europe and the Islamic world at odds, activists in Egypt and across the region are calling for a better means to communicate. One activist in Egypt told Bikya Masr that the Italian woman’s statements are likely to do more harm than good and were unnecessary.”
One must ask what better means of communication can there be than speaking the truth?
One must wonder why Europe (and Africa and the Middle East and Asia and North America and South America and Australia) are “at odds” with the Islamic world.
And one must wonder why speaking the truth, again backed up by Islamic references, “are likely to do more harm than good”. How can the truth ever do more harm than good? Is concealment of the truth, or lying about the truth a safer way to communicate? Why should people feel unsafe about communicating the truth? Is this simply the Islamic world requiring us to “submit” to their doctrine?
~ The Infidel Alliance
(Proudly defending the rights and freedoms of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Baha’i, Sikhs, women, gays, athiests and especially apostate Muslims from the intolerance, violence and apartheid of Islam)
Jonh B whilst I do not want to be included in this font fighting of words, I have to agree with your comment regarding Egypt’s history.
I have always had a fascination with ancient Egypt but it’s only after taking a trip last year and getting “really deep†into it’s history that I have truly been gripped.
Egypt was without a doubt, the greatest nation on earth, yes I said it. ON EARTH. It’s history is carved on temples all around Egypt. Science, medicine, technology, you name it, the Egyptians did it when the rest of the world were living in caves and clubbing each other to death. Egyptian women became great Pharoahs and ruled better than the men, trading all over the world and bringing beautiful materials back to their country.
It was the topic of many discussions on our cruise ship with other travellers, with the question being asked, “What happened?†I don’t know whether Islam had anything to do with it but I truly marvel at what Egypt could have become and it breaks my heart that the powers that be have allowed such an amazing country to fall into wrack and ruin. The social problems infecting Egyptian life is like a cancer and I can’t believe that this strong race of people are sitting back and watching this great nation destroy itself.
Yes, I know other countries have their social problems but Egypt is the Mother of the world. What happened !!!!
A Teaching on False Prophets and The Truth of God…
A Teaching of Falsehood and Darkness and Death…
From The Hadiths, Sahih Muslim:
Book 017, Number 4206:
‘Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma’iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma’iz) again came to him and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma’iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah’s Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah’s Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid’s) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.
A Teaching from the Truth and the Light and of Life…
John 8:1-12
1 And Jesus went unto mount Olivet. 2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came to him, and sitting down he taught them. 3 And the scribes and the Pharisees bring unto him a woman taken in adultery: and they set her in the midst, 4 And said to him: Master, this woman was even now taken in adultery. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us to stone such a one. But what sayest thou?
6 And this they said tempting him, that they might accuse him. But Jesus bowing himself down, wrote with his finger on the ground. 7 When therefore they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said to them: He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again stooping down, he wrote on the ground. 9 But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest. And Jesus alone remained, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 Then Jesus lifting up himself, said to her: Woman, where are they that accused thee? Hath no man condemned thee?
11 Who said: No man, Lord. And Jesus said: Neither will I condemn thee. Go, and now sin no more. 12 Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
To: jjb
In summary,
Egypt considered to be a some kind of a super power just around couple of centuries ago, during Mohamed Ali period. They used to refer to Cairo as Paris on the Nile, and Egypt looked like part of Europe. They had one of the first railroad in the world, good quality education, industry, they even had scientific explorations deep in Africa. They were developing at acceptable decent pace.
Around sixty years ago, bunch of ignorant, hungry, and greedy army officers hijacked the country and the process of reverse evolution began. They used the country resources for their own as well as for their family and friends. They did not bother about education, social issues, or scientific planing for the future. The security system (police and National security) is dedicated toward serving the corrupted leaders.
Egypt has mainly three sources of income. The Suez canal, Tourism and Gas & Oil. Any one of these resources by itself can left the country out of its misery. However because of corruption and ill planing, all of the resources are not helping.
By the way the railroad is still in use until now with minimum improvement and many fatal accidents.
I am happy that you enjoyed your trip
I am not on either side of this debate. Both sides raised very interesting stuff supported by the same three references (Koran, Bokary and Sahih Muslim). Both sides talking about facts and truth and that can not be possible, unless you are using completely different references.
This debate can go for ever unless both mention, who translated these references from the original script and is it a reliable, and credible translator. The reference should be accepted by the scientific community, though I believe science is not involved in this matter.
Bare in mind that languages, names and words developed through time and some old words used in new ways or for new applications. For example the word mouse, it meant a regular ordinary house rodent until around the 70th. After that time, it also got a new application as an aid to run the computer (computer mouse), also mouse potato (a person spend a lot of time on the computer. There are several Dictionaries dedicated for new words and new applications for old words. The word terror means (whatever you guys decided), it might have another meaning hundred of years ago. Also, what was the original Arabic word that has been translated into terror? I’ll try to search it myself.
Also, people tried to translate jokes which is a much nicer subject and all parties were anxious for the laughter, but usually does not work.
Could you kindly elaborate and go deeper into some of the above inquires.
Thanks,
Thanks for explaining that Charles Darwin. I always enjoy reading your posts.
>Bare in mind that languages, names and words developed through time and some old words >used in new ways or for new applications.
Let’s go for big things instead of splitting language under the microscope. In one text above, Mohamed ordered execution of a woman who was a mother to a baby. How do you want it to translate to look nice? I am trying to look at a big picture. Are these thousands upon thousands of terrorists just “a few” extremists who don’t deserve to be mentioned in aggressive protests against the “Crusaders”? I don’t even care that Koran permitted Mohamed to take a daughter-in-law as his wife. May be I am more upset that he used Christians as sexual slaves, and they were slaves because they were not Muslims. Unless somebody addresses the major issues, what would be the reason to split hair over detailed wording? I am trying to be positive. Help me out!!! Please!!!!
To jjb and Charles – yr comments #80 and 82
Thanks for your words. Who cannot love Um el Dunyya = the morther of the world!? I have come to love this country and its people like my home country (Switzerland) or even more perhaps. The reasons for its decline are mainly to be sought in the last 40 years (Nasser was per se not corrupt but had a corrupt bunch around him – at least he had the well-being of the ordinary citizen at heart unlike the corrupt folks that followed), the foreign agendas imposed on the dictators in the region in general as well as the personal interests, power hunger and greed. Worth more than just a few words … but it has to do.
Thanks again, Eleonora
To jjb – yr comment #64
SORRY this is going to be long!
Dear jjb
Sorry it took me a while to update and partially translate my docs. But it being of a very high interest to me I thought it worth the time. FGM was historically recorded for the first time some 5’000 (!!) years ago – Islam is only some 1400 years old … I guess it is safe to say that this is an Islamic must?!
First things first and sarcasm aside – you asked:
“I understand that some 90+% of Indonesian Muslim girls are mutilated on the Prophet’s birthday each year, is this true ?â€
This is absolute and 100% a fabrication and propaganda of the worst kind. I have come across this statement now for the 5th time in 10 months – it seems to be a new propaganda tool of the “Bash Islam Coalition†of which you seemingly are a victim too.
Who ever told you that must have (1) a very special agenda or (2) a very deep seated hatred and should get his/her Islamophobia treated. Shame, that human beings have no qualm about spreading such horrendous lies. Reminds me very much of the “blood libel†lie about the Jews which can not be extinguished either.
Female Genital Mutilation is practiced in the following countries:
- Benin 2001 – 16.8 (Muslims 20%)
- Burkina Faso 2005 – 72.5 (Muslims 50%
- Cameroon 2004 – 1.4 (Muslims 20%)
- Central African Republic 2005 – 25.7 (Muslims 15%)
- Chad 2004 – 44.9 (Muslims 51%)
- Côte d’Ivoire 2005 – 41.7 (Muslim 35 %)
- Djibouti 2006 – 93.1 (Muslims 94%)
- Egypt 2005 – 95.8 (Muslims 90%)
- Eritrea 2002 – 88.7 (Muslims 50%)
- Ethiopia 2005 – 74.3 (Muslims 50%)
- Gambia 2005 – 78.3 (Muslims 90%) – average FGM is at 70 % but its at 100% with the Fula and Sarahuli women
- Ghana 2005 – 3.8 (Muslims 16%)
- Guinea 2005 – 95.6 (Muslims 85%)
- Guinea-Bissau 2005 – 44.5 (Muslims 45%) – average FGM is 50% but 70-80% in the Fula und Mandinka regions, 20 – 30% urban regions
- Kenya 2003 – 32.2 (Muslims 10%)
- Liberia – 45.0 (Muslims 20%)
- Mali 2001 – 91.6 (Muslims 90%)
- Mauritania 2001 – 71.3 (Muslims 100%) – average FGM 25%; 95% among the Soninke and Halpulaar women, 30% among the Moor Frauen
- Niger 2006 – 2.2 (Muslims 80%)
- Nigeria 2003 – 19.0 (Muslims 50%)
- Senegal 2005 – 28.2 (Muslims 94%)
- Sierra Leone 2005 – 94.0 (Muslims 60%)
- Somalia 2005 – 97.9 (Muslims 100%)
- Sudan 2000 – 90.0 (80% of total population in survey), (Muslims 70%)
- Togo 2005 – 5.8 (Muslims 20%)
- Uganda 2006 – 0.6 (Muslims 16%)
- United Republic of Tanzania 2004 – 14.6 (Muslims 35% mainland, Zanzibar Island 100 %)
- Yemen – 22.6 (Muslims 98%)
Reported to some extend but no detailed studies available:
Colombia (Christian)
Democratic Republic of Congo (Muslims 10%)
India (Muslims 13,4)
Israel (practiced by Beta Yisrael = 100 % Jewish)
Malaysia (Muslims 60.4%)
UAE (Muslims 99%)
Oman (Muslim 98%)
Peru (Christian)
Sri Lanka (Muslims 7.6)
To jjb
Continuation
You can easily see from the above compiled list that the religion – any religion for that matter! – has nothing to do with this despicable heinous crime. But it has everything to do with culture and tradition. The name of the worst FGM tells you where it comes from: Pharaonic circumcision – this is where the labia minora and the clitoris are removed and the labia mayora is stitched together
I do not quite understand where you’re coming from: you do accept that the Jewish and Christian FGM has its roots in tradition/culture … but when it involves Muslims it must be based on the Islamic religion?!
Among the countries practicing FGM are just two Arab countries – Egypt with 95.8 % and Yemen with 22.6 %. Indonesia knows practically no FGM neither do the Iraq, Malaysia, Oman and the UAE. There are some reports but quite obvious not significant enough to merit a study. Concerning the study I shall ad: unfortunately.
100 % Islamic countries like Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrein, Kuwait, all the Maghreb States as well as predominantly Islamic countries like Azerbeidjian (93.4% Muslims), Turkmenistan (89% Muslims) including Kazakhstan (50% Muslims) – I may have missed some – do NOT know nor practice any form of FGM.
That much for the “symbiosis†of FGM and Islam – a statement which the Islamhaters repeat ad nauseam and against better knowledge.
The WHO, UNICEF and UNFPA agreed on the following classifications/descriptions:
Type I:
Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
Type II:
Partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
Type III:
Narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
Type IV:
All other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, for example: pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization.
The most inhumane form is the conventional “Pharaonic Circumcision†a.k.a. infibulation (approx. 15% of all forms in Africa). Usually a small opening is left in order to discharge of the urin and the menstrual blood. If the less conventional PC is performed the parts are not removed in their entirety and a bigger opening is left.
The big part of the circumcisions performed in Africa are the clitoridectomy or the excision (approx. 85%). The in the least radical procedure contains the removal of the prepuce.
Today many tribes only hold just a ceremony where there is no true mutilation involved anymore. The ritual can be: to hold a knife next to the genitals, to prick the clitoris, to cut a few pubic hair or to inflict a light scar on the genitals or on the upper thigh. In Egypt the big majority is pricking if the information given by gynaecologists is correct. That does not make it much better though IMO.
To jjb
End
The (legal) situation in Egypt:
All variations of FGM are practised among all religious groups of Egypt. The infibulatioin is mainly known in the South. In the North the pricking is prevalent as well as the reduction of the clitoris through partial removal.
A presidential decree of 1958 (Gamal Abdel Nasser) bans all kinds of FGM. It is punishable with prison and a fine. In July 1996 the then Health Minister, Ismail Salam, banned all licensed medical professionals from performing FGM in which ever form .
In June 1997 a court overturned this ban. The presiding judge, Abdul Aziz Hammada, justified his decision, that FGM is a kind of surgical intervention which every doctor has the right to perform without the Ministry of Health’s interference and/or consensus.
The Health Minister as well as the Egyptian Syndicate of Doctors appealed this court’s decision and Sheikh Sayed Mohammed Tantawi of Al Azhar supported their appeal as the religious authority. Various NGO’s as well as the Egyptian HRO joined the appeal. The ban as well as the punishments were upheld by the Court of Appelate.
The situation with respect to the Islamic religion:
Again in 2002 Sheikh Sayed M. Tantawi made it very clear in an interview that FGM is kond of blasphemous and presumptuous and a discrimination against Islam.
Sheikh Tantawi feels so strongly about this issue that he wrote himself by hand on a Target document that: “FGM is a custom, not a religious duty. Everything Hadiths tell us about is untrustworthy.â€
With this statement of his Sheikh Tantawi also nullified the argument of some “holy men†that the capping of the clitoris is allowed for whatever purpose.
Islamic critics of this bloody custom of the FGM have always questioned this “capping of the clitoris being allowed†especially in view of the proven fact, that Prophet Mohamed did NOT have his daughters circumzised.
~*~*~
Read also:
http://www.yoursdaily.com/layout/set/print/world_news/middle_east/islam_outlaws_female_genital_mutilation
Islam Outlaws Female Genital Mutilation
Sensational Resolution of the Scholars’ Conference at Azhar University in Cairo on 22 and 23 November, 2006
“Ten of the highest ranked scholars from all over the world met at the Azhar University under the patronage of the Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Ali Goma’a. After listening to several international physicians, they pronounced the sensational decision to classify the custom of female genital mutilation (FGM) as punishable aggression and crime against humanity. As a result, the custom can no longer be practiced by Muslims. Now awareness of this decision has to be spread in the 33 affected countries.
The religous scholars at the conference were the following: Grand Mufti and Patron of Al-Azhar: Prof. Dr. Ali Goma’a; the Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar: Prof. Dr. Mohamed Sayed Tantawi; the Minister of Religion of Egypt: Prof. Dr. Mahmoud Hamdi Zakzouk; Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi from Qatar; Sheikh Hissein Hassan Abkar from Chad; Imam Mahammadou Diallo from Mali; Imam Bal El Bechir from Mauritania; Sheikh Mohamed Darassa from Ethiopia, and Imam Tarafa Baghrajati from Austria. Reports were given by medical experts from Egypt, Ethiopia, and Germany.
The German human rights organization had invited “TARGET-Ruediger Nehberg” to this conference. Its two presidents, Ruediger Nehberg and Annette Weber, have been engaged in fighting FGM on location in Africa since 2000. They brought into being a “Pro-Islamic Alliance”, because they regard Islam as their strongest partner in ending this cruel tradition with the ethics and the power of Islam. At so-called TARGET desert conferences, they had already been able to achieve great successes in Ethiopia, Djibouti, and Mauritania. The conference at the Azhar is the greatest highlight so far. Most of all, it also shows the strong positive forces in Islam.”
~*~*~
As for your question “why isn’t this out in the open?â€: read also Al Masri Al Youm “Girls march against FGM†by Hoda Rashwan and Said Nafie, 14/3/2008 (http://www.almasry-alyoum.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=97381) Girls marching in protest in Menya (Upper Egypt).
~*~*~
It is very much out in the open but a lot of work still needs to be done across al countries and cultures. My personal remarks to this issue are just a few thoughts:
- Why are UN sanctions and/or boycotts against countries who allow the practice of FGM still refused resp. attempts to bring this issue forward stopped?
- Why are existing laws applied in a laughable relaxed way?
- Why is money available for these countries at the Worldbank, IMF, the Western countries, etc.? Especially considering the fact that the oppression of women is always a handy issue/cause/reason … when it comes to Islamic countries at least!
- Why is education in general and awareness never ever the first item on the sponsored development programs? If they are on the list at all for that matter …
- WHY?
Best regards, Eleonora
Sources used:
UN Archive (jont report OHCHR, UNAIDS, UNDP, UNECA, UNESCO, UNFPA, UNHCR, UNICEF, UNIFEM), WHO, AI Library, Target, United States Department of State Reports as well as ff, Al Ahram, Al Wafd, Al Masri al Youm and Egypt Today (2002, 2003)
>Female Genital Mutilation is practiced in the following countries:
Well, your long post does not address the key issue: who is doing it most in these countries.
I am sure that this is an indigenous tradition in some countries. However, it wasn’t picked up by Christianity. I am not sure why Muslims would adopt the practice to such extent. There is no doubt about Somalia, Egypt and other countries with Muslim majority. You shouldn’t blame it on islamofobia where it doesn’t exist.
To Omar – yr comment #85
You are outraged that more than 1’400 years ago “… Mohamed ordered execution of a woman who was a mother to a baby. How do you want it to translate to look nice?”
1. This woman (who later discovered that she was pregnant and became a mother) as well the man confessed to have committed adultery. They got punished by the pre-islamic stoning to death. Stoning is not enshrined in the Qu’ran btw and could easily be totally abolished too in the Islamic countries.
2. Two Islamic countries and in one (Islamic) province of Nigeria this cruel punishment is still applied today.
But just for the records: Stoning as punishment is to be found in the Bible – not for murder (which could maybe be understood) but for the most trivial things looking back at it from todays view point. Then it was apparently OK. I’m not the one to judge – important to me is that it is not applied anylonger. I do hope whole heartedly that we can soon say the same about the two Islamic countries I mentioned above.
But just a few examples of the trivial “crimes” which merited stoning to death:
For touching Mount Sinai, Exodus 19:13
For taking “accursed things”, Joshua 7:1-26
Achan … took of the accursed thing. … And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. … So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger.
For cursing or blaspheming, Leviticus 24:16
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him.
For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough), Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city.
For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, Deuteronomy 22:13-21
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her … and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel’s virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel’s father shall say … these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. … But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.
For disobeying parents, Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother … Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city … And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.
For cursing the king, 1 Kings 21:10
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.
~*~*~
You know, Omar, for me it is not THAT significant what happened 3’000, 2’000 or 1’400 years ago. For me it is very important though how human mankind has developed and adapted its “character, values and principles”. The look back on the history is of great value and importance but it definitely is not something which I blame the Jews, Christians and Muslims of TODAY for.
It’s like blaming todays Germans for the crimes of their forefathers. It is not their fault what their Grandparents did or didn’t do = stand up against a terror regime. We are all very easy to judge with todays knowledge.
But what would we have done in the very same situation 3’000, 2’000, 1’400 or 70 years ago? We all don’t know but we all would like to think and believe that we would have reacted differently, better – naturally!! But the ultimate proof will always be missing – Thank God I shall ad for me personally.
I do not indulge in religion bashing as I have said before. Commentators with statements like :”Muhammed: The sadistic, sociopathic, murdering, decapitating, amputating, torturing, enslaving, raping, stealing, looting, sexually perverted, genocidal, terrorist Prince of Islam. The Guiding Moral Compass of Islam. The excellent model of conduct for all Muslims. Islam’s “perfect manâ€.” are simply ignored by me with very few exceptions.
As I said some weeks ago in one of the forums: religion is a very personal matter and I don’t see any benefit in insulting people whom I don’t even know personally in their spiritual beliefs. Other seem to see it fit to do – be my guest.
BUT I do very much critizise the implementation, the interpretation and the abuse of the religous messages (be it Judaism, Christianity or Islam) by people, by political and/or religious “leaders” as well as by parties and lobbies for their personal agenda. But this has NOTHING to do with the respective religion.
If we could grow above the personal hatred and phobies … that would be great and the day I’m looking forward to.
PS How upset are you btw that CHRISTIANS took non-Christians as slaves? Not some 1’400 years ago … just some 200 years ago? Not bothered or outraged? And that America just a few years had no problem (and no worldwide outcry! not even an outcry within all of America!) in executing a mentally handicapped minor in Texas? No sleepless nights because it didn’t happen 1’400 years ago and the perpetrator was not Muslim? Do you see the pattern?
Sleep well
Thanks for the info, Eleonora.
The 90% rate that I mentioned amongst Indonesian Muslims directly related to an article that I saw in the British Sunday Times only a few months ago. They showed pictures of little girls dressed up like little women, wearing hajibs, lipstick and blusher and waiting in a line for their turn to be mutilated. There was another picture where a little girl was standing on a bed and proceeding to remove her undergarments and the last picture was where she was lying down (top part only) and her facial expressions made it clear that she was screaming for her life whilst some woman (possibly her mother) was holding her brow and “shushing” her as if she had woken from a bad dream. The article said that up to 98% of all Indonesian women from all social strata undergo some form of mutilation and they made it clear that this was on the Prophet’s birthday each year
What concerns me that if none of this is true or fabricated as you mention, why is it that no complaints were received from members of the Muslim community in England ? Often articles are incorrect and the paper is forced to apologie but I am a regular reader of The Times and I saw no such apology. It makes me wonder if this barbaric practice will ever go away if women are not prepared to speak up.
Secondly I have read a lot of articles by Nawal El Saadawi and she makes it clear that the problem is very real and very big right in Egypt where she was born and raised and practiced medicine, often going into detail about the horrific state of some women’s genitalia that came into her office. I also believe it was Ayaan Hirsi Ali who also explained the religious/cultural reasons fo FGM in her book The Caged Virgin.
I’m not convinced that the procedure in Egypt is now nothing more than a bit of pricking. Not convinced at all. It doesn’t make it better but I’d take a pricking over complete removal of my clitoris anyday. In any event, I have seen enough pictures and videos of little girls being sliced with razors by MALE barbers in Egypt to remain convinced that this barbaric practice is in full swing. Since that little girls death in 2006 which prompted the government to ban the practice, I believe that parents are more discreet but the butchering continues.
Thank you very much for clearing that up. I appreciate the lengths that you went to to get this information. I am just so grateful for being born and raised where I live and the fact that I haven’t been mutilated like millions of women worldwide. I count my blessings every day.
By the way, regarding FGM in Saudi Arabia – Daughters of Arabia by Jean Sasson mentions that it exists in that country too.
To Omar – yr comment #90
“I am sure that this is an indigenous tradition in some countries.” Yes, I know you would love that to be the case – naturally except where it concerns Islam. Where there is a sniff of Islam it MUST be religiously motivated … I wonder though how the Jews would love it to be called “indigenious” …
Further you say: “However, it wasn’t picked up by Christianity.” No?? If it would be worth my time I could give you a breakdown on the religious groupings of each country. But let me just show you what blinders (or ignorance?) can do to you:
Central African Republic = FGM 50%
Protestants 25%, Rom-Cath. 25%, Muslims 15%
Eritrea = FGM 90%
50 % Christians, 50 % Muslims
Ethiopia = FGM 90%
Muslims 45-50%, Orthodox 35-40%,
Ghana = FGM 30%
Christians 63%, Muslim 16%
Kenya = FGM 50%
Christians 78%
Liberia = FGM 50-60%
Christians 50%, Muslims 20%
WHEREAS:
100 % Islamic countries like Iran, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Bahrein, Kuwait, all the Maghreb States as well as predominantly Islamic countries like Azerbeidjian (93.4% Muslims), Turkmenistan (89% Muslims) including Kazakhstan (50% Muslims) – I may have missed some – do NOT know nor practice any form of FGM. And Indonesia knows practically no FGM neither do the Iraq, Malaysia, Oman and the UAE
As the (non-Islamic) saying goes: all one needs to do is give him enough rope to hang himself.
But you can naturally refuse to open your eyes and see … add up 2+2 and come up with 27,5 … and continue to sleep peacefully – LOL!
#90
Thank you for the explanation. Yes I am outraged by slavery. It is true that it happened and for your comfort, both Muslims and Christians were involved in slave trade (together). I don’t think that the slave holders are to be revered or imitated like you Prophet. They can be and should be harshly judged. There was even more recent slavery in Niger and Mauritania. I hope you can condemn slavery in Sudan happening right now.
About stoning in the Old Testament: yes it happened in those primitive societies. Bible was NOT dictated by God. It was written by inspired people who put some historical customs there. It was clearly abolished by Christ, who, as Christians believe is God. I was hoping that your Prophet who came after Christ and took Koran directly from God, brought an improvement over Christ’s message (Muslims don’t attribute deity to Christ). Were my hopes in vein?. I still need a better explanation. Mohamed ordered execution of other women, not for adultery but for writing satirical poems:
March 624: Asma bint Marwan
She was a poetess who belonged to a tribe of Medinan pagans. She composed a poem blaming them for obeying a stranger (Muhammad) and for not taking the initiative to attack him by surprise. Perhaps in March 624, when the Allah-inspired Prophet heard what she had said, he asked, “Who will rid me of Marwan’s daughter?†A member of her husband’s tribe volunteered and crept into her house that night. She had five children, and the youngest was sleeping at her breast. The assassin gently removed the child, drew his sword, and plunged it into her, killing her in her sleep. (Ibn Ishaq, pp. 675-76.)
How about execution for apostasy? Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?. I found nothing of this kind in the Bible.
Thanks for your responses. I am really trying to understand Islam. Pointing fingers in all directions doesn’t help. According to your religion, Mohamed was the final prophet. Forget Joseph Smith.
>Further you say: “However, it wasn’t picked up by Christianity.†No??
I am aware of some circumcised “apostate” women who became Christian. However, I am not aware of a single circumcised women based on the Christian teaching. In fact, Christianity specifically abandoned male circumcision some 2000 years ago, despite that this is in the Bible (what you may likely point out). Therefore, I am not clear where your vicious allegations come from. To be effective, you must use DIRECT evidence. Otherwise, you can statistically conclude that the amount of alcohol consumed in Salt Lake City correlates with the number of Mormons who, as Muslims, by religious convictions do not drink. I just want to understand the logic and the underlying principles of your religion.
To Omar – yr comment #96
I have said before – but naturally for you I repeat without any extra costs
– Female Genital Mutilation is NOT based in or on any religion. Not in Judaism, not in Christianity, not in Islam.
We find it nonetheless in all people who confess to one of the 3 monotheistic religions as well as some in Buddhism and Hinduism. Equally we find it in so called “indigenious religions”. And we find it more or less spread over the continents – loosly said. In Europe as an example we find it too – but only in immigrant circles who still adhere to their tribal and pre-religious practices.
This is clear to and understood by every sane person who is able to comprehend that this crime against humanity pre-dates any of the 3 mono religions and is NOT ankered in one of them nor in two of them nor in all of them.
I am not the one who hurls “vicious allegations” against participants. Maybe you check again your list of addressees??
Bye
To Omar – yr comment #95
I just saw yr comment (forgot to refresh before posting) “I am really trying to understand Islam. Pointing fingers in all directions doesn’t help.”
Why don’t you simply read the Qu’ran open-minded and without pre-set perception? There you would find interesting things like that democracy is enshrined in the Qu’ran as Yasar Nuri Öztürk so eloquently and conclusivly laid out in his essay. Makes one wonder what kind of “infidel Muslims” today’s dictators are???
You would also find that the Qu’ran urges people over 300 times to use their brains. You would also find out, that quite a considerable part of the Human Rights (as formulated in the UDHR) have their roots in the Qu’ran. And so on.
What just doesn’t sit right with me is this constant (intentional?) mix of the teachings of a religion (and this goes btw also for Christianity and Judaism but they are not the focus point of today’s political agendas) whereas one actually addresses pre-Islamic tribal traditions as well as cultural (mis)habits and then try to sell them as the core of a religion.
~*~*~
Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.” as this is very interesting.
I know another story which I summarize as follows: when the Prophet Mohamed conquered Mecca (returning from Medina) he asked the defeated: “What do you think I will do to you?” Being defeated they said “you are a generous brother and cousin.” The Prophet answered: “Go, you are free”. Doesn’t quite tally with this bloodthirsty story you’re telling me.
So, it’s my bedtime. Hope to read you tomorrow.
To jjb – yr comment #
“What concerns me that if none of this is true or fabricated as you mention, why is it that no complaints were received from members of the Muslim community in England ? ”
This is a very, very serious allegation, jjb. Could you please do me a favour and copy this article to the WHO who recently issued the interagency report about eliminating FGM. You may also want to copy the UNHCR, UNIFEM, UNICEF, UNAIDS, UNHR, UNDP, ECfA as well as the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. All party to some projects in this regard.
NONE of them has Indonesia on their list. Indonesia is mentioned as a few incidents which – as I said – do not merit even a study.
So – please – if your motives are genuine do copy these organizations as this is a vital issue for us women. Thanks. While at it if you have a link to this article I would appreciate it very much.
You say: “It makes me wonder if this barbaric practice will ever go away if women are not prepared to speak up.”
You know what the real problem is which is very difficult to eradicate? The women themselves think that it is OK – yes, I know it is difficult to believe. But have a look at the references sites and go into the statistics. You will see how enormously big the percentage of circumcised women is who think that this is OK and who had or will have their daughters circumsized (mutilated in my words) too. This is why education is so vital. The rest will follow (almost) automatically out of the knowledge.
I know Nawal El Saadawi, she is a wonderful person. I don’t quite understand – I do NOT deny that this problem of FGM exists in Egypt; where do you get this from? Or do I misread you? It is BIG, it’s some 95 %!!!!!! Today the main praxis in urban areas is pricking – on this Nawal would certainly agree. But this doesn’t make the rest (mainly in the rural part) go away.
Ayaan Hirsi is a totally different story – please don’t put her together with Nawal El Saadawi. Hirsi is on the payroll of AEI which – by their own definition – is a zionist think tank (please don’t mix it up with Judaism – two totally different pair of shoes!). Thank you, but no thank you. She also advocated some years ago to “modernize” Islam and adapt it to European standard i.e. mini-skirt, spaghetti top and … Hijab. I attended this lecture by invitation in Zurich and am very sorry to say that she has lost all credibility in my eyes.
Back to the FGM: “…Since that little girls death in 2006 which prompted the government to ban the practice …” Wrong, the ban is in place since 1958!!! And neither Sadat’s government nor Mubarak’s government are doing anything meaningful to stop the practice.
That’s one of the real problems which I keep addressing …
So, it’s well past my bedtime and I definitely go now
. Take care for now
Dear “Omar”.
Very excellent post! It is clear why Eleonora is so enamored with Egypt….because she loves “denial” (the nile…lol).
Ealonora states: “I do not indulge in religion bashing as I have said before. Commentators with statements like :â€Muhammed: The sadistic, sociopathic, murdering, decapitating, amputating, torturing, enslaving, raping, stealing, looting, sexually perverted, genocidal, terrorist Prince of Islam. The Guiding Moral Compass of Islam. The excellent model of conduct for all Muslims. Islam’s “perfect manâ€.†are simply ignored by me with very few exceptions.”
Facts are not “bashing” Eleonora, they are simply facts. They are ignored by you because you are in denial of the truth. Rather than confront reality or face the truth, you are like the “see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” monkeys. (no I’m not calling you a monkey – this is simply a metaphor). I wonder how you would feel about Adolph Hitler if I used the same references to him. Would you ignore these comments too, or defend Hitler?
Omar, Eleonore asks “Why don’t you simply read the Qu’ran open-minded and without pre-set perception?” I think this is great advice for anyone! That is precisely what I did. I used to buy into the “Islam is a religion of peace” mantra, but I put that aside and did a completely objective analysis of the Koran, the Ahadith, the Sira, Sharia law and Islamic jurisprudence, and the history of the spread of Islam. Unless someone is a brainwashed zombie, they will come to the inescapable conclusion, that :
1) Muhammed was evil
2) Islam is evil
3) Sharia is evil
4) the spread of Islam was evil
5) “Infidels” of all kinds have suffered mightily under Islam
6) Muslims themself are the biggest victims of this oppressive sadistic intolerant cult
I encourage everyone to read the Islamic texts for themselves. Definitely.
~ The Infidel Alliance
(In memoriam: Leon Klinghoffer, “infidel” victim of Islamic brutality)
>We find it nonetheless in all people who confess to one of the 3 monotheistic religions as >well as some in Buddhism and Hinduism.
Thanks. You are good with numbers. Can you tell what percentage of ALL female circumcisions is done to Muslim women, Christian and Jewish women? (you can assume that Christians and Jews together are about equal in numbers to Muslims – this assumption works to your advantage).
About reading Koran: many statements make no sense unless you read Hadith (I read it too). Taken together they pretty much justify what these guys were shouting under the Danish Embassy (#66).
Look at this video with an unprejudiced mind.
Good morning Omar
Give it up, ya Omar, remember: “If you find yourself in a hole stop digging”.
I have done the major part of the work – you can easily do the rest of the work yourself.
Or you can check back with those on who’s payroll you (and the “bunch”) are and who make sure that you clutter forums with your hateful and missleading posts. BTW – you both are up very late – is this part of the work conditions? Not very human …
~*~*~
In those early morning hours you seem to have overlooked a simple question of mine:
“Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.†as this is very interesting.”
I don’t think it is asking too much – or maybe it is?
I hope you have a pleasant day and don’t get too much bothered by some eye-rolling, murdering, Allahu-akbar shouting “Dhimmi” chasers
Read you later
Eleonora
Thanks once again for the information. FGM is of interest to me but but only where Egypt is concerned. How odd. For me, it is such a beautiful country and I love it so much that I can’t bear to think that is affiliated with such a barbaric practice. Especially, when I hear that so many Egyptian women are sexually harassed as well, so unfair. Anyway, you can imagine how happy I am to hear that although it exists there are less “barbaric” forms being practiced. I love Nawal, she’s my shero. I know both she and you are trying to make a difference and that’s great. FGM will outlive us ( for sure) but if educating ONE mother prevents ONE daughter from being mutilated then you’ve lived a full life. I understand that many many men (fathers and husbands even adolescent boys) are vehemently opposed to it, more so than women. Are any Egyptian men involved in shaming this evil practice ?
I will contact the Sunday Times regarding that article but as another Muslim can I urge YOU to get your Muslim sisters in the West to speak up for women’s rights. Have you ever read a book called “Sold” ? I remember reading it years ago and trying to discuss it with my Muslim friends in the UK. Their response astonished me and I was told by a few that I know nothing of “honour” in their communities and should therefore stick to my own business !!!! The rest of them shrugged their shoulders as if it wasn’t their problem. I was shocked.
“Sold” is by Zana Muhsen. The book broke my heart.
I hear there are many great things about Islam as is the case with other religions. It just pains me when all others ever hear is when something goes bad and then you get the religion bashing which has been going on here. I would love to see Islamic women speak up more, not just about women’s issues but what defines Islam. I think if we all educate each other, then we would be more tolerant of each other and this world would be a better place (including this forum !!!)
Dear “jjb”,
Whatever good there may be in Islam, it is all infected and tainted by the death fatwa for apostacy.
Until Muslims are completely and totally free to leave Islam and choose another religion, or reject islam altogether and become an atheist, Islam will always remain an oppressive gulag of terror.
You know what i am talking about:
Bukhari (83:37) – “Allah’s Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate.”
Bukhari (84:57) – “[In the words of] Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”
Bukhari (89:271) – A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to “the verdict of Allah and his apostle.”
Best regards,
~ The Infidel Alliance
>I would love to see Islamic women speak up more, not just about women’s issues but what defines >Islam.
Yes, I applaud. Can Muslim women marry infidels? Any scholarship on that? This is just a question,
not bashing.
To jjb – yr comments #103 + 104
I guess all of us humans try our best to make a drop of a difference in the best way we can and hopefully only to better the conditions surrounding us
.
You say: “I think if we all educate each other, then we would be more tolerant of each other and this world would be a better place (including this forum !!!).”
The Qu’ran (I can’t help but mentioning this passage as I love it) urges us to take care of our 7th neighbour! It also grants freedom of thought and opinion provided that discussions [on religion] are of an objective nature and are not a pretext for abuse and ridicule. We are on a number of occasions reminded to “argue [with them] in ways that are best and most gracious.”
Reading posting #105 gives you an idea what is meant. Prof. M.H. Zakzouk said it very suscinct in one of his studies from which I may quote: “Belief is based upon one’s conviction and sincere belief is, therefore, based on indisputable conviction and is not the result of blind imitation or compulsion. Every individual is free to choose or adopt the faith in which he believes and to exercise his free thought even if he is an atheist. No one has the right to interfere with his beliefs provided that he keeps his beliefs to himself and does not spread them among the people in order to confuse them regarding their moral values.”
Further he says: “If he ([the apostate] should renounce his religion without spreading his views among the people and without shaking the people’s belief, he is immune against all harm.”
A number of Muslim scholars are of the opinion that the person who renounces his faith does not meet his punishment in this world, but would be punished in the Hereafter on the Day of Judgement. They also declared that the execution of those who renounced Islam, according to the sayings of the Prophet, was not for renouncing Islam, but for being enemies of Islam who had fought the Muslims on the battlefield. (Abdul Mit’al Al Sa’eedy “Freedom of Religious Thought in Islam” 2nd Edition).
In short: it took (most of the) Christians and Jews centuries to move away from rules and laws which were introduced under certain then valid circumstances at the onset of the shaping of their religious beliefs. Yet they still and again have a growing number of fanatics and extremists without others bashing, demonising and villifying their religion as a whole. Should this right not also be granted to Muslims and Islam?
Islam as a whole is moving at its own pace in the right direction (in my opinion). It has a lot of thinkers, open minded scholars and ordinary people who are willing and able to balance the core of Islam with a modern society without corrupting their spirituality or compromising on their beliefs. Unfortunately, since almost 20 years Islam is put in a defensive role which stops many people from reflecting but rather forces them to defend “Islam” as a whole. It is a natural human reaction that – if attacked – one defends what is dear and starts putting up a psychological wall.
Ever since the phrase “Clash of Civilizations” was coined in 1992 by Prof. B. Lewis in “Foreign Affairs” (which later was picked-up by Samuel Huntington and worked into a book) the orchestrated attacks gained momentum with the Atlantic Monthly being one of its mouthpiece. Pipes, Horowitz et al follow in his foot steps. Funny enough Lewis’ writings were the trigger point for me to have a better look at this (then) to me foreign religion.
“Islam” can not defend its values towards outside interference and at the same time clean-up the house and keep its extremists at bay. This is a very difficult endeavour, almost impossible to balance. The nutrition for the extremists is just too much: corruption, injustice from within and from outside, nepotism, joblessness, increasing poverty and hoplessness since some 40 years and growing etc. are the basic food for them. And nothing, but really nothing is done to aleviate the plight of the ordinary people. On the contrary. To me it seems often that this is exactly what is wanted.
Yes jjb, it often “kills” me – it could be so easy if only we would accept the other as an equal partner with equal rights. Only then can we call ourselves truly in the proper sense of the word tolerant and human beings.
~*~*~
As for the women: I like the essay (some 50+ pages booklet) by Dr. Sharif Muhammed Abdul Azim where he compares women in Islam to the women in the juedeo-christian tradition. Other than being very informative he urges the international Muslim community at the end of the study to formulate a Charta with the rights of the Muslim woman, which are written down in the Qu’ran and which also derivate from the teachings of the Prophet. He demands that this charta must be implemented the soonest possible and FINALLY give the women all the long overdue rights which are given to them through the Qu’ran! How do you like this? Reminds me of Qassem Amin who fought some 100 years ago that the Egyptian women take off their hijab.
And again – such things are never an issue in Western media and discurses. Why? Why is it almost imperativ, that since some 20 years there is only and only one possible way to depict Islam = negativ, devilish, vile, murderous etc.? Those reasonable voices who don’t shout are always burried under the slogans of the extremists and the propagandists. They feed each other and reason and logic dies a (un)natural death.
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You would like for Muslim women (and men) to speak out more – I wish for the same. They do but often too little too late. I have listened to public discussions in Europe where they were just shouted over and insulted. Usually the discussion turns to “you’re brainwashed” – “they told you to say so” – “did you get a good beating before coming to the panel so you say the right stuff” … etc. It is absolutely discouraging and despicable. Only if one says the “right” things like e.g. Hirsi does one get applaus.
Take the Hijab as an example. I don’t wear it (except when we perfomed Haj) and never will because I’m not convinced of it. Equally I don’t exclusively wear long sleeves. But that’s me and I have that right. God and I will sort out these issues
. (As it is written: it is between you and God and no one has the right to force you.) Other women think differently. That’s fine with me too. The exception here being Iran and Saudi where women are forced (which is against the explicit teachings of Islam!) to adhere to a certain dress code.
Now go to Europe: the Hijab has suddenly become THE issue although for decades it was not. Europe accepts the Sikhs with their turbans, the Buddhists with their robes, the Jews with the Yarmulka and the Teffilin, the … whatever. But the Hijab is the drop that makes the bucket overflow?! And it made it overflow only since 6 years. What changed all of a sudden?
Yet the same Europe goes to pure islamic countries and forces them “diplomatically” to build churches, accept the western (looser) dresses as something normal for the Islamic society, insists on “pork and alcohol” and imposes their culture and habits. Does nobody allow him/herself to see that something is fundamentally wrong in this Master/Servant behaviour? I can’t believe it.
~*~*~
Involving men in fighting FGM is very difficult in this culture where discussing the sexual organs of a woman is still not a common thing to do. But one of the possible ways is to involve actively doctors especially gynaecologists.
~*~*~
Thanks for the tip with the book. I’ll try to find it.
Take care for now
To Omar
In those early evening hours you seem to have overlooked a simple question of mine:
“Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.†as this is very interesting.â€
I don’t think it is asking too much – or maybe it is?
So I asked … I must conclude that I’ve asked too much. It seems there is no source for this statement other than the Atlantic Monthly or maybe Horowitz?
Sorry for being a nuissance
To Omar – yr comment #106
You ask: “Can Muslim women marry infidels?”
No – neither can Muslim men marry an atheist woman = infidel. It is allowed though for Muslim men to marry a woman who confesses to one of the “religions of the book” (i.e. the Bible or the Tora). If a Muslim woman wants to marry a non-Muslim man he has to convert to Islam. But I know that you knew this already
.
It is not like in Judaism where it is forbidden for a Jew (men and women) to marry a non-Jew; be this a Muslim, Christian, atheist or anything else. A Jew is only allowed to marry a Jew.
In Christianity it used to be the same – only Christians don’t adhere to this religious law anylonger.
See you around
BTW – I feel for you as you seem to have the night shift again
!
To jjb – my comment # 107
I just see that I forgot to mention the affiliation of Dr. Zakzouk who I referenced in my mentioned posting.
He is not some nutty professor who sits somewhere in hiding under a false name out of fear for his safety (!! as some here claim this to be the reason for some fancy nick name
) but he is with the Ministry of Al-Awqaf (Endowments) Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs.
I thought it important to mention this fact as he says such things as: “Every individual is free to choose or adopt the faith in which he believes and to exercise his free thought even if he is an atheist.”
This being absolutely in line with the ‘breaking news’ you heard from the “infidel alliance” in his comment # 105.
In my last comment I didn’t think it necessary but on a second thought and for whatever its worth it may be useful to add that Dr. Zakzouk is the Minister.
Wow, Eleonora !!! Thanks a lot for the information. I like this Dr Zakzouk. I’m going to look into some of his essays.
>In Christianity it used to be the same – only Christians don’t adhere to this religious law anylonger.
There was never such religious law in Christianity. Yes, there was recommendation to marry in the same faith but only a recommendation. Simply it is easier to have a family following the same values. Christians marry non-Christians all the time and this is not against their tolerant and open religion. Christians also don’t kill for apostasy. Do you think that Christians women should be prohibited to marry Muslim man (to be fair to everybody?). Especially, that Islam requires Christian women to raise children as Muslims.
To Omar – yr comment #113
Your white wash attempt is nice … and you give the simple and correct answer which naturally ONLY applies to Christians: “Simply it is easier to have a family following the same values.”
I still have the document which my (protestant) mother had to sign when she married my (catholic) father. She had to swear by God the Allmighty and sign that she will never teach the children her WRONG religion nor would she ever attempt to bring them to her temple of worship. (The document even refused to call it simply a church!). She was forced to take classes in order to be able to educate us children in the true (catholic) religion.
And up until a few years it was still a must to publish three weeks prior to wedding the intention of the couple to get married. This was done by hanging the so called “Marriage Intention” outside the Community Hall on a special board. It is still done today but in a more discret way. This publication includes the religion in our “secular” state. Anyone who opposes the marriage should then come forward within this three weeks or be silent for ever. It used to be that the “good” Christians often opposed to mixed Christian marriages. Thanks God this has practically stopped today except for a few nutwings.
I don’t quite understand why you play dumb-dumb? I know that you know but for the sake of it and because it looks so nice I have no problem to repeat what today every “Tom, Dick, Harry … and … Omar” knows:
In Christianity the child takes automatically on the religion of the FATHER and the wife is required to educate it accordingly.
In Islam the child takes automatically on the religion of the FATHER and the wife is required to educate it accordingly.
In Judaism the child takes automatically on the religion of the MOTHER and the wife is required to educate it accordingly.
Most followers of one of the three religions still follow this educational guideline simply because (other than true believe) it is “easier to have a family following the same values”. Sounds familiar?
But maybe you or one of you friends can name a family where the mother is Jewish, the father a Muslim and they educate their children as Christians and Hindus …
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“Christians also don’t kill for apostasy.” No – not ANYMORE.
And the cases where some nutwing Muslims goes awry are very very few. I’d love to hear some names and examples from you.
And remember what Dr. Zakzouk said and published (after all the Minister of Al Awqaf and not some “Tom Dick and Harry ….”)
“If he ([the apostate] should renounce his religion without spreading his views among the people and without shaking the people’s belief, he is immune against all harm.â€
It seems you are pretty fact resistent. How did you achieve this? (I call this intellectual dishonesty.)
~*~*~
How is this riddle to be solved? Any idea, ya “Omar”?
“Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.†as this is very interesting.â€
I would like to set this straight as some nit-picker might come back on it:
“In Judaism the child takes automatically on the religion of the MOTHER and she is required to educate it accordingly.”
The language of Islam is dualistic. As an example, there is never any reference to humanity as a unified whole. Instead there is a division into believer and kafir (unbeliever). Humanity is not seen as one body, but is divided into whether the person believes Mohammed is the prophet of Allah or not.
Kafir is what the Koran and Islam call the unbelievers. Kafir is the worst word in the human language.
The Koran defines the kafir and says that the kafir is:
Hated- 40:35 They who dispute the signs of Allah [kafirs] without authority having reached them are greatly hated by Allah and the believers. So Allah seals up every arrogant, disdainful heart. and despised by Allah.
Mocked- 83:34 On that day the faithful will mock the kafirs, while they sit on bridal couches and watch them. Should not the kafirs be paid back for what they did?
Punished- 25:77 Say to the kafirs: My Lord does not care for you or your prayers. You have rejected the truth, so sooner or later, a punishment will come.
Beheaded- 47:4 When you encounter the kafirs on the battlefield, cut off their heads until you have thor-oughly defeated them and then take the prisoners and tie them up firmly.
Confused- 6:25 Some among them listen to you [Mohammed], but We have cast veils over their [kafirs] hearts and a heaviness to their ears so that they cannot understand our signs [the Koran].
Plotted against- 86:15 They plot and scheme against you [Mohammed], and I plot and scheme against them. Therefore, deal calmly with the kafirs and leave them alone for a while.
Terrorized- 8:12 Then your Lord spoke to His angels and said, “I will be with you. Give strength to the believers. I will send terror into the kafirs’ hearts, cut off their heads and even the tips of their fin-gers!”
Annihilated- 6:45 So the kafirs were annihilated. All praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
Killed- 4:91 If they do not keep away from you or offer you peace or withdraw their hostilities, then seize them and kill them wherever they are. We give you complete authority over them.
Crucified- 5:33 The only reward for those who war against Allah and His messengers and strive to com-mit mischief on the earth is that they will be slain or crucified, have their alternate hands and feet cut off, or be banished from the land. This will be their disgrace in this world, and a great torment shall be theirs in the next except those who repent before you overpower them. Know that Allah is forgiving and merciful.
Made war on- 9:29 Make war on those who have received the Scriptures [Jews and Christians] but do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day. They do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden. The Christians and Jews do not follow the religion of truth until they submit and pay the poll tax [jizya], and they are humiliated.
A Muslim is not the friend of a kafir- 3:28 Believers should not take kafirs as friends in preference to other believers. Those who do this will have none of Allah’s protection and will only have themselves as guards. Allah warns you to fear Him for all will return to Him.
A kafir is ignorant- 6:111 Even if We had sent down the angels to them [kafirs], the dead had spoken to them, and We had gathered all things before their eyes, they would not believe unless Allah had willed it, but most of them are ignorant.
Evil- 23:97 And say: Oh my Lord! I seek refuge with You from the suggestions of the evil ones [kafirs]. And I seek refuge with you, my Lord, from their presence.
Disgraced- 37:18 Tell them, “Yes! And you [kafirs] will be disgraced.” a partner of Satan 25:55 And still they worship others besides Allah who can neither help nor hurt them. The kafir is Satan’s ally against Allah. Unclean- 9:28 Oh, believers, only the kafirs are unclean.
Cursed- 33:60 They [kafirs] will be cursed, and wherever they are found, they will be seized and mur-dered. It was Allah’s same practice with those who came before them, and you will find no change in Allah’s ways.
Stolen from- Bukhari 5,59,537 On the day of Khaybar, Allah’s Apostle divided the spoils of war of Khaybar with the ratio of two shares for the horse and one share for the foot soldier.
Raped- Ishaq 759 [Mohammed's official biography] On the occasion of Khaybar, Mohammed put forth new orders about forcing sex with captive women. If the woman was pregnant she was not to be used for sex until after the birth of the child. Nor were any women to be used for sex who were unclean with regard to Muslim laws about menstruation.
Christians and Jews are infidels, but infidels are kafirs, too. Polytheists are Hindus, but they are also kafirs. The terms infidel and polytheist are religious words. Only the word “kafir” shows the common political treatment of Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, animist, atheist and humanist.
The word kafir should be used instead of “unbeliever”, the standard word. Unbeliever is a neutral term. The Koran defines the kafir and kafir is not a neutral word. A kafir is not merely someone who does not agree with Islam, but a kafir is evil, disgusting, the lowest form of life. Kafirs can be tortured, killed, lied to and cheated. So the usual word “unbeliever” does not reflect the political reality of Islam.
Eleonore,
>I still have the document which my (protestant) mother had to sign when she married my (catholic) >father. She had to swear by God the Allmighty and sign that she will never teach the children her >WRONG religion nor would she ever attempt to bring them to her temple of worship. (The >document even refused to call it simply a church!). She was forced to take classes in order to be >able to educate us children in the true (catholic) religion.
YOU SEE!!! SHE WAS PERMITTED TO MARRY!!!. You confirm my point.
There is a difference to permit a woman to marry whoever she wants (with whatever conditions), and kill her for marrying somebody from the other faith. Do you agree at least on this point?
>>And up until a few years it was still a must to publish three weeks prior to wedding the intention of >the couple to get married. This was done by hanging the so called “Marriage Intention†outside the >Community Hall on a special board. It is still done today but in a more discret way.
It is there in the OPEN (and has ever been). The Catholic marriage is an irreversible Sacrament which does not permit divorce (as is permitted in Protestant denominations and Islam). Simply, the 3-week notice is designed to make sure that the Sacrament is valid. Obviously, it may be invalid anyway. For example if either side states AFTER marriage that they never wanted to have children, in spite of what they said in the presence of witnesses. In Islam conversion is irreversible. The difference is that Catholics are not executed for divorce or apostasy (nor they have ever been).
Did you ever hear this argument?
Ancient religious texts like the Koran contain outdated ethical concepts. The Old Testament has brutal laws and violent passages. As a result Christians and Jews don’t follow them. Muslims are the same as Christians and Jews; they pick what works and reject what doesn’t work. Why should Islam be considered any worse than other religion or cult?
The short answer is that Islam is not similar to anything else, including religions such as Christianity. As far as the Koran having any outdated ethical concepts, that is impossible. According to Islamic doctrine, the Koran is perfect, eternal and universal. It does not contain the slightest error since contains the exact words of Allah. Hence, it can never be outdated.
Also, the Koran is a derivative book. Every idea in the Koran, with two exceptions, can be traced to earlier works. The two novel ideas in the Koran are that Mohammed is the last prophet of god and that violent force, jihad, can be used to harm those who don’t agree with Mohammed. Violence against kafirs (unbelievers) is systemic in all of Islam’s texts and forms a central theme.
Yes, the Old Testament has violence, but there is no real parallel to the Koran and Islam. Look at the numbers. The violence in the Old Testament is limited to a few verses. The violence in the Koran against the kafir (unbeliever) takes up 61% of the text. Every mention of the kafir is brutal, condemning, pejorative, hateful and threatening. The Hadith, the Traditions of Mohammed, has 20% of its text devoted to jihad. The Sira, Mohammed’s life, has 70% of the text about Mohammed as prophet devoted to jihad.
These numbers show that the analogy between the violence in the texts of the Jews and Christians is vastly overdrawn.
The next suggested parallel between Islam and Christians is that both pick and choose from their texts. Every Muslim believes that the Koran is perfect down to the last letter. It does not have a single error. This makes it very difficult to ignore.
To Omar – yr comments #116 + 117
Oh Omar! Why do you do this to yourself? You keep running in circles and zig-zag and biting yourself in your butt – sorry.
Read my postings – I said (because that’s how I learned it in my catholic gir’s school from the past) : “In Christianity it used to be the same – only Christians don’t adhere to this religious law anylonger.”
You tell me that this was only a “recommendation” – and forgot to give a source or a link. Fine … I believe you for the time being that you’re right and Father Dominique was wrong – may God bless his soul.
Why should I haggle over it with you? For me it is of no significance as I don’t try to villify and/or dehumanize one or the other religion. I just give you and the likes the comparative rules and laws of the other 2 mono’s as you and your friends try to portray certain things as exclusively “Islam”. That’s all.
You say: “There is a difference to permit a woman to marry whoever she wants (with whatever conditions), and kill her for marrying somebody from the other faith. Do you agree at least on this point?”
Only some lunatic would not agree that some conditions (evn ugly ones) are better than being killed
. But tell me: who gets killed by whom for marrying somebody from another faith?
Or will this question bit the same dust as my other question to you with respect to your other statement – being: “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?”
Remember I keep asking you:
“Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.†as this is very interesting.â€
Unfortunately you choose to “foggy-up” things and keep coming up with new “questions” … but the one above does not want to go away. By now they are 2 open questions – do you reckon you can find the answers?
Would be really nice ….
Eleonore,
I am sorry, but I work more than full time, and I can only entertain this fascinating debate during night-shift. Here is your question.
>Please guide us to the source of “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire >tribe and let them bleed to death?.†as this is very interesting.
I believe I read it in Hadith. Here is a sample (e.g. #6380). There are much worse things there too.
http://www.sahihmuslim.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dspbookfull&BookID=82
To Eleonora regarding comment @# 43,
It is funny how Arabs/Muslims only apply imperialism, colonialism, slavery and Nazism to Christians/Europeans when Arabs/Muslims are equally guilty of those crimes.
While European colonialism only lasted 200-300 years, Arab colonialism has been going on for 1400 years, so Arabs are BIGGER colonialists than Europeans. Here’s a full list of lands Arabs colonized:
Lands Arabs stole from Africans:
Sudan, Somalia, Mauritania, Djibouti, Comoros
Lands Arabs stole from Berbers:
Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya
Lands Arabs stole from Copts:
Egypt
Lands Arabs stole from Jews:
The Land of Israel (today’s Israel + the Palestinian territories + Jordan)
Lands Arabs stole from Aramaeans (Maronites, Assyrians, Chaldeans and Mandeans):
Lebanon, Syria, Iraq
So by any standards the Arabs are conducting the biggest colonization project the world has ever known.
Arabs/Muslims are also in the process of ethnically cleansing the Middle East of its indigenous Jews and Christians. Before 1948 there were a million Jews in the ME, today there are a few hundred. By contrast, there are more Arabs in Mandated Palestine (Israel + Pal territories + Jordan) than there was in 1948. By all means Arabs are ethnically cleansing Jews not vise verse. You can’t argue with numbers. Lebanon, once a thriving Christian state (“The Paris of the ME”) has become a Muslim state due to unending Muslim invasions and occupations by the PLO, Syria and Iran (through Hizballah). The Christians of Iraq are viciously persecuted, bombed and massacred and are on the verge of extinction. Berbers and Kurds are not allowed to use their language and culture in their own countries! Towns with Berber names are constantly erased and substituted with Arab ones.
IF ALL THE ABOVE AIN’T IMPERIALISM/COLONIALISM THAN WHAT IS???
On the matter of Arab slavery go to the following link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzpAbyvq0bY&feature=PlayList&p=0E8BD4F55436F669&index=0&playnext=1
And by the way, the Arabic word for Black is abid or “slave”.
I’ll be addressing the Islamo-Nazi connection in my next comment.
To Omar – yr comment #119
I’m sorry for your work load and that you have night shifts …
All the more I thank you for having answered the long hanging question. I can comfortably assume that you will find the time during the next night shift to answer the other one too (?): “But tell me: who gets killed by whom for marrying somebody from another faith?†Your statement.
~*~*~
You take things out of context again both in terms of failing to tell the whole story i.e. the circumstances that led to this specific situation neither do you mention the norms prevailing at the time the event took place as opposed to the applied norms of today.
I assume that you know too that telling half the truth is as good as telling a lie.
(6379) “Some people from the tribe of ‘Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milk) camels of charity and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away.
(6380) your citation which was the punishment.
(6381) “A group of people from ‘Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with milk.” The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah’s Apostle.” So they went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah’s Apostle, he sent some men in their pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day.â€
6381 is a slightly different wording but the same core content. I guess you must have “overlooked†what was written before your quote and after it??
Equally you must have overlooked what it says in the Bible which was adequate for those times and circumstances too:
2 Samuel 4 (Second book of Samuel)
(10) when a man told me, ‘Saul is dead,’ and thought he was bringing good news, I seized him and put him to death in Ziklag. That was the reward I gave him for his news. (11) How much more – when wicked men have killed an innocent man in his own house and on his own bed – should I not now demand his blood from your hand and rid the earth of you!” (12) So [King] David gave an order to his men, and they killed them. THEY CUT OFF THEIR HANDS AND FEET AND HUNG THE BODIES TO BLEED TO DEATH BY THE POOL IN HEBRON. But they took the head of Ish-Bosheth and buried it in Abner’s tomb at Hebron.
(The talk here is about the sons of Rimmon being Rechab and Baana)
The difference between you and me is: I would not use such and other events from the Bible and/or Torah to dehumanize, vilify and defame an entire religion and its followers and in pursuit of an agenda (be this your own or some else’s).
The reasons being:
1) I do respect both the Torah and the Bible
2) Because in those times such punishments were “normalâ€
3) I do not have an agenda nor am I on anyone’s payroll to spread hate in forums and incite people against any certain religion and its followers.
To Eleonora, comment # 23,
The difference between Judaism and Islam is that while the practice of cutting hands was only practiced by SOME in ANTIQUITY in Islam it is practiced by MANY in MODERN TIMES! That’s all the difference!
I think it’s time to have a look at a pattern which repeats since some 12 years and which is so typical for the anti-Semitic, anti-Islamic Alliance with the roles so carefully assigned to each member of the alliance who come under different banners – their favorite being to use Muslim names ïŠ.
The numeric order of the list does not necessary equate to priority as this can vary according to topic and necessity. But the following are always the catch themes on which they then elaborate:
1) Prophet Mohamed and his “bad and immoral deedsâ€
Claiming that there are no churches and synagogues in Muslim countries
2) The “nine-year†old girl Aisha
3) Al Taqyya
4) The infidels, meaning mainly the Christians and the Jews. Interesting enough – those who are considered truly infidels = those who don’t have a “religion of the book†and those who have but don’t follow their messages – are never a concern of the alliance nor do they ever mention them.
5) “Hitlerism†allegations
6) Forced conversions and apostates
7) Playing with such horrific items as FGM and Acid Attacks and claiming that they have their roots in Islam
9) Dhimmitude
10) The twist ‘n turn and evading answers with new questions
11) Religiously mixed marriages
12) Cruel punishments
13) “Stealing the land of the Jews†and others as the latest addition
14) …
15) …
16) …
Points 14 to 16 usually pop-up when they near mental bankruptcy. So let’s wait and see. Until this morning I have lost 1 bet and won two. Hopefully I’ll win the next one too as this would mean a nice dinner at a nice place in Zamalek. I just hope they don’t let me down.
Hhhm – this should naturally have been # 8 on the list and not this funny looking guy with the sunglasses:
8 Claiming that there are no churches and synagogues in Muslim countries
To Administration – coul you give somewhere a list of what is converted into emoticons. That would be nice. Thank you.
Oh well then … having a new member on the day-shift I guess it’s worth a one time answer just to show the integrity and honesty of the new “Muslim” member:
Omar and I were having a friendly chat about his question: “Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.†I’m waiting for Omar to come back on my last posting with (hopefully) a reasonably good explanation as of why he left out the most important part and just put in a one-liner totally of context. Bad people would assume some intentions – I just wait for his explanation. We’ll see.
But lo and behold there is a “new” member of the alliance who chooses to indulge in #10 on my list – the “twist ‘n turn”. But it seems they assigned a new trainee to the day-shift. S/he states:
“The difference between Judaism and Islam is that while the practice of cutting hands was only practiced by SOME in ANTIQUITY in Islam it is practiced by MANY in MODERN TIMES! That’s all the difference!”
Does it matter that Omar and I were discussing the text of the Hadith which he put in (“Is it true that he ordered to chop one hand and one leg of the entire tribe and let them bleed to death?.â€) and the text of the Bible which I put in (“THEY CUT OFF THEIR HANDS AND FEET AND HUNG THE BODIES TO BLEED TO DEATH BY THE POOL IN HEBRON”).
Not really – so our new addition to the forum thinks. All s/he sees is “Wow! What an opportunity to put in the MANY chopped off hands!” and puts in the above text which I repeat for ease to read: “The difference between Judaism and Islam is that while the practice of cutting hands was only practiced by SOME in ANTIQUITY in Islam it is practiced by MANY in MODERN TIMES! That’s all the difference!”
Does it matter to her/him that in today’s Islam no one gets his hands and feet cut off and left bleed to death? NO. Does it matter to him/her that only in Saudi Arabia is amputation of the hand (in a hospital by a doctor) still done if a thief is caught and tried and only if he stole for personal gain?
In order that nobody reads me wrong: I do not agree nor condon such forms of punishment – but that’s not the point here.
The point is a simple although significant one: this punishment is vetted out in Saudi Arabia, a nation of roughly 24 Mio people. These 24 Mio people equal “… in Islam it is practiced by MANY in MODERN TIMES” – mind you the Islamic “nation” has some 1,5 BILLION people.
This is what I call intellectual honesty and integrity …
>The difference between you and me is: I would not use such and other events from the Bible and/or >Torah to dehumanize, vilify and defame an entire religion and its followers and in pursuit of an >agenda (be this your own or some else’s).
Dear Eleonore,
The difference between me and you is that I am trying to compare apples to apples. Even “Catholic” girl like you can perhaps objectively compare Christ to your Prophet. You can always find “Christians” among inigenous circumcised women in Columbia and tell that everything is equal, despite that the vast majority of female circumcisions among Abrahamic religions is in Islam. Now, let’s go to APPLES and APPLES: Christians imitate Christ (as you might have learned in your Catholic school), and Muslims Mohamed, as you must know as a Muslim. Can you now prove that Christ was more violent than Mohamed? We are talking about role models, religious leaders to follow at all times. Hints: do not compare Mohamed to inquisition or Cortez. This would be elevating the others. Do not try to compare Koran to Old Testament (Koran was dictated by Allah, Bible was written by the people). Ask yourself a simple question: can anybody seriously following Christ threaten others with death, nuclear holocaust etc. Thank you!
P.S. I have no hidden agenda. I want the TRUTH. Either I am mad or facts don’t add up. Removing eyes of anybody with red hot iron is not my idea of religion.
To Omar – yr comment #128
Ya Omar! What is it that drives you? The truth it can not be, otherwise I would not read statements like: “You can always find “Christians†among inigenous circumcised women in Columbia and tell that everything is equal, despite that the vast majority of female circumcisions among Abrahamic religions is in Islam.”
Would you really chase the truth and nothing but the truth you would not like a robot and against better knowledge repeat the above. You take what it suitable (and making a joke of the incredible sufferings of the women) and what doesn’t fit you brush under the carpet. I am not the one circumcising the Christian girls in e.g. Central African Republic, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, and Liberia – all overwhelming Christian countries with a very high rate of mutilated women. Neither am I the culprit for the Islamic women’s sufferings. And frankly, I do not appreciate it to play with such sufferings to score a point.
I’m not driven by hate for other beliefs and religions but rather can accept that this is a pre-monotheistic pagan “habit” and it is high time that the world gets rid of it. Unfortunately it is still a long way to go.
See, as long as either one of you “truth-chasers” is only willing or able to accept cultures, traditions and tribal habits from the pagan times for their own religions i.e. Christianity and Judaism and refuses adamantly the same measuring scale for Islam … as long as this is the case any discussion – honest as it may be – ends in a cul-de-sac. Only when we are able to apply to all of them the same measuring stick only then can we maybe get anywhere.
Christians should not imitate Christ and neither should the Muslims imitate Mohamed. Both are examples which should be followed at best (you have forgotten that the Muslims hold Christ in very high esteem and honor him as a prophet too). I would like to hope that you are open-minded enough to the fine difference. Remember: “Belief is based upon one’s conviction and sincere belief is, therefore, based on indisputable conviction and is not the result of blind imitation or compulsion.”
“…can anybody seriously following Christ threaten others with death, nuclear holocaust etc.†Yes, quite obviously. Not only threaten but implement it as we can see from the history of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Or as we can see from the threats of America to use “limited nukesâ€. Israel too didn’t have any qualms about issuing such threats. And I’m not even talking about the historic 1973 when Israel activated its nuclear war heads to get America to comply with its demands. What was it that you wanted to ask?
~*~*~
This whole discussion reminds me very much of my childhood. When we were kids we used to say: “My big brother is stronger than you’re big brother and I’ll tell him to beat your brother up.†Thankfully my big brother and I have moved way past that childish stage and have developed. It’s not whose religion and/or its leaders are better, worse or equal. It’s what we humans make and take out of it today. I say this against the background of my wider family which accommodates not only the 3 religions but also a few non-religious people.
To conclude: I have come a long way via looking at Judaism to Agnostic to Islam. Islam and its teachings suits me best and is (mostly) in accordance with my overall first believe in the UDHR. I have found my peace and my suitable lifestyle which I try to bring the best possible way in accordance with my spirituality. I hope that one day everybody is at peace with himself and hat we do not need to dissect and destroy someone else and/or his believe to feel better.
I whish you all the best and I mean it. Have a nice weekend,
Eleonora
The questions were:
Can you now prove that Christ was more violent than Mohamed? (as a role model)
Can anybody seriously following Christ threaten others with death, nuclear holocaust etc? (e.g. utube #66).
And a minor question: since when Erithrea is and overwhelming Christian country? It has at least 50% Muslims.
>I am not the one circumcising the Christian girls in e.g. Central African Republic, Eritrea, >Ethiopia, Ghana, Kenya, and Liberia – all overwhelming Christian countries with a very high >rate of mutilated women
How about Ethiopia? Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%. You better do not worry about circumcision by Christians. I simply state: circumcision is certainly not practiced by the true Christians. As a seeker of TRUTH I admit that there is such thing as syncretic Christianity or Islam (certainly not in Somalia). The case of Christian syncretism exists for example in Central African Republic after CIA factbook: indigenous beliefs 35%, Protestant 25%, Roman Catholic 25%, Muslim 15%
note: animistic beliefs and practices strongly influence the Christian majority.
>Christians should not imitate Christ and neither should the Muslims imitate Mohamed.
This is news to me. May be you overheard in your Catholic school that imitating Christ is the highest ideal in Christianity. I recommend o XV-th century book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_of_Christ_%28book%29. Christ himself asked to follow him. The “Catholic” Eleonora abolishes that. Thanks, but thanks.
I know that Mohamed must not be criticized as we have learned in the case of Danish cartoons or Theo van Gogh. There must be a reason for that.
>I’m not driven by hate for other beliefs and religions
Neither am I. I always write about your Prophet using capital letters, and I quote only permitted sources such as Hadith to understand his personality. If you start shouting “islamophobia” no rational discussion is possible. Yes, there are some emotional people on religious matters. However I am trying to learn through discussion. Pointing fingers in all directions does not help. Let’s assume the Muslim point of view that both Christ and Mohamed were prophets. Then, lets go to questions in #131. You probably don’t want Muslims to imitate your Prophet. Check during your Friday prayers if they agree with that.
BBC on female circumcision:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/femalecircumcision/femalecirc_1.shtml#section_6
>“…can anybody seriously following Christ threaten others with death, nuclear holocaust etc.†>Yes, quite obviously. Not only threaten but implement it as we can see from the history of >Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
You confuse decisions made by the secular state with individual threats, murders (Theo), and suicide in order to go to paradise (killing innocents on the way).
>To conclude: I have come a long way via looking at Judaism to Agnostic to Islam.
Clearly, you were never a Christian (as you claim in your previous posts).
To Omar – your comment # 131
“Can you now prove that Christ was more violent than Mohamed? (as a role model)”
I don’t know where you get this statement from – it was never my point to prove Christ was more violent than Mohamed neither did I ever make an attempt to that effect – not even a feeble one. As a matter of fact I never entered the race that “my brother is stronger than your brotherâ€. You’re the one who has a bone to pick. Maybe you should look elsewhere?
“Can anybody seriously following Christ threaten others with death, nuclear holocaust etc? ”
Why didn’t’ you tell me this sooner? I would have told Mohamed not to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki – now it’s too late.
I would also have told Mohamed el Amricani not to threaten other nations with “limited nuclear bombsâ€.
I would also have told Mohamed El Yahudi (Jew for non-Arabic speaking readers) in 1973 not to let Israel activate its nuclear war heads to force America to comply with its demands. I would have told him in general to tell his chosen people not to always play with this little nukes as it is harmful to the health of people.
And quite obvious when Mohamed George W. Bush was talking to God he (God) must have given him some wrong advice as it is really not nice to threaten innocent people with the nuclear holocaust e.g. Iran.
I would also have told Mohamed el Amricani not to go and bombard the heck out of Afghanistan and Irak and kill innocent civilians – their numbers being well above 1 Mio.
I would also have told Mohamed el Yahudi not to invade neighbouring countries from time to time as a pass-time activity – it’s really not nice.
The space is too limited to list all the things I would have told Mohamed el Amricani and Mohamed el Yahudi not to do because of the Millions of innocent civilians who got killed and maimed in the process. We don’t even know their exact numbers and names nor do we care to know…
And I would have told Mohamed el Muslim not to fight but rather to roll over, lay down and accept whatever comes his way. After all it’s meant as a nicety if he gets bombarded, occupied and his resources plundered and his land stolen. These “Cowboys” and their friends just have sometimes a bit a rough way to express their love.
I would also have told Deputy Defense Minister Mohamed Matan Vilnai not to publicly threaten the Palestinian with a Holocaust – this is really not good-neighbourly behaviour.
All this I could have told him (Prophet Mohamed) – if only YOU would have told me earlier who is having the nuclear bombs and threatening whom with the Holocaust.
Eritrea: my mistake that I overlooked that it’s 50/50 – can you forgive me? Or are you going to mobilize your “Taliban brothers�
To Omar – yr comment # 133/4
It is not that I don’t want Muslims not to imitate Prophet Mohamed. They are advised NOT to imitate but rather to follow the best possible way his example. And so are the Christians as you say yourself: Christ asked to FOLLOW him (and not everything Father Dominique told us can be wrong just because you say so!). Although I’m aware that fine but important linguistic details and definitions don’t matter to you if they don’t fit your argument I insist on it.
Maybe you for once try to really comprehend this sentence and learn – as you keep saying this is your motive?
“Belief is based upon one’s conviction and sincere belief is, therefore, based on indisputable conviction and is not the result of blind imitation or compulsion.â€
BTW and in order to put your soul to rest: the Sheikh agrees with me, isn’t that funny?
To Omar – yr comment #135
I learned from your BBC link:
“Genital cutting is widespread within some African cultures and ethnic groups.”
“In some communities the controversial practice is a female rite of passage and remains an important religious and cultural tradition. IN REGIONS WHERE A NEW RELIGION HAS BECOME DOMINANT, THE TRADITION OF GENITAL CUTTING DOES NOT NECESSARILY DIE OUT. [Emphasis added]â€
Tztztz, wonder what they are talking about here – don’t they know that this is not a tradition but this is Islamic according to Omar (the tentmaker?) – they should have asked you first!
“Female genital cutting is currently practised among ethnic groups in 28 countries in central Africa.â€
Here again – they don’t get it that this is Islamic and not tribal. I know now for sure they didn’t ask you, didn’t they?
“The Kenyan Government, for example, estimates that 32 per cent of women aged between 15 and 49 have undergone the procedure in more than half of the country’s districts. In 1998, the Ministry of Health conducted a demographic survey which revealed that genital cutting was more widespread amongst certain ethnic groups. These included Kisii (97 per cent); Maasai (89 per cent); Kalenjin (62 per cent); Taita/Taveta (58 per cent); Meru/Embu (54 per cent); Kikuyu (43 per cent); Kamba (33 per cent); Miji Kenda/Swahili (12 per cent). In north eastern Kenya, an area not covered in the survey, the UN office for the co-ordination of humanitarian affairs estimates that at least 98 per cent of girls are subjected to infibulation.â€
What really must have come as a surprise to you is that this unreliable BBC does not brand anywhere Islam, right? Maybe you should write write to them, explain to them the matter from your view point as you know best and ask them to correct their website. Maybe you want to contact Honest Reporting as they are extremely good in organising such campaign including having people fired.
And it doesn’t speak for the seriosity of the Kenyan Government either that they don’t research the cases by religion but rather by ethnicity. Or do you think it has to do with the fact that Kenya is 78% Christian with 50% mutilated women??
How come only you and your friends are hell bent on sticking this issue on Islam? Just a question as you claim that all you want is to learn. But I must admit you’re quite learn-resistant.
To Omar – yr comment #136
“You confuse decisions made by the secular state with individual threats, murders (Theo), and suicide in order to go to paradise (killing innocents on the way).”
Sorry – do you mean to say that bombing to dust and ashes approx ¼ Mio people of a state which made clear that it is willing to surrender is … I don’t know how to phrase this … killing of non-innocent civilians and, therefore, OK? Don’t forget that the USA knew that Japan is going to surrender. Still it was going ahead with the bombing in order to state an example and to make it clear for future “opponents to their hegemonial aspirations†what kind of powerful weapon they possess. Can be read in quite a number of history books written by the people involved.
For me there is no – but absolutely no! – difference between the State’s terror spread in abundance by the known powers and a suicide bomber. At least a suicide bomber doesn’t kill out of gread, power hunger, corporate-military interests, regional and hegemonial aspirations in order to advance the globalization of poverty but rather out of despair. And no, I don’t condone suicide bomber – just in case you want to put words in my mouth.
But do remember the words of a wise man: “My terrorist is their freedom fighter”. And as not all parties are given by “Papa” the same yardstick to fight each other (actually one has none) it is inevitable that the one without the stick fights with what he has.
“Clearly, you were never a Christian (as you claim in your previous posts).”
Yeah, I guess it is for you to judge this conclusively … in psychology this is called classical projection = see “Omar”
. (Why do you digg yourself in all the time? You seem just to love it!)
Sleep well
>Why didn’t’ you tell me this sooner? I would have told Mohamed not to bomb Hiroshima and >Nagasaki – now it’s too late.
I certainly wouldn’t follow Truman as my spiritual leader.
>I would also have told Mohamed el Amricani
I wouldn’t follow him either
>I would also have told Mohamed El Yahudi (Jew for non-Arabic speaking readers)
He certainly wouldn’t be my spiritual leader either.
>Mohamed George W. Bush was talking to God he (God)
Another Mohamed? No way!
>I would also have told Mohamed el Amricani not to go and bombard the heck out of Afghanistan and Irak and kill innocent civilians
I wouldn’t follow any Mohamed who ever killed another human being, except in defense of innocents. I have disdain for any killer, deliberately targeting defenseless and innocent. No violent person cutting hands, legs, heads, burning out eyes with red hot iron could ever be my SPIRITUAL leader. Yes, I have to be a subject of political leaders but I certainly wouldn’t take them as role models for my spiritual life. I may be forced to pay taxes or die, but I could not accept it of my free will.
I am at peace with my conscience and I wish you the same. My early morning shift starts again.
>But do remember the words of a wise man: “My terrorist is their freedom fighterâ€.
http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn
Congratulations on your wisdom. I am horrified.
Here you have another “freedom fighter”. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qecwlrWnjqk
To Eleonora,
Now let’s look at Islam’s connection to Nazism. Let’s start with the Palestinian leader Haj Amin al-Husseini. He met with top Nazi officials, such as Himler, Eichman and Goebbels many times. He was Hitler’s personal guest and lived in Nazi Germany for some years. He had he’s own Muslim-Bosnian Nazi unit who’s job was to murder Jews, Gypsies, Croats and Serbs. He planned on opening a death camp for Jews near Nablus once the Germans took over Palestine. He also tried to poison Tel-Aviv’s wells in order to kill it’s Jews.
At the end of 1942, Eichmann ordered 10,000 Jewish children sent from Poland to Theresienstadt. The Red Cross offered to trade German civilians for them.Husseini got wind of the scheme and protested vehemently to Himmler, warning him that the little Jews would soon become big Jews.The exchange was cancelled. Husseini and the Palestinian Arabs also barred Jews from entering Palestine and thus sentenced them to death. Husseini’s 1936-1939 terror campaign, in which 500 Jews were murderd and many expelled, was financed by the Nazis.
Here are some of he’s quotes on Jews:
Arise, o sons of Arabia. Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor.”
In his memoirs he wrote:
“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: ‘The Jews are yours.’ ”
In 1937 Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda minister, praised the Arabs’ “national and racial awareness,” noting that “in Palestine they hoist Nazi flags and deck their homes with swastikas and portraits of Hitler.”
Many Israelis knew Nablus antiquities dealer Abu-Rommel (Romel being the comamnder of the Nazi Afrika Korps). Salim el-Mahri, for many years chief of Arafat’s own Force 17, was called Abu-Hitler, since he named his eldest son after the fuehrer and his second Eichmann.
But not only were the Palestinains Nazi collaborators, every National Arab movement from Egypt’s Free Officers, through Syria’s and Iraq’s Ba’athist parties, to Fatah, Hamas and Hizballah were influenced by or Nazism. Nasser and Sadat were ardent admireres of Hitler, and so was Saddam Hussein. Sadat even wore a swastika tie to Israel’s parliament. Hitler’s Mein Kampf and the Protocols of Zion are bestsellers in the Muslim world. Nasser was not some “nice Arab leader” but a bloodthirsty-war mongering-imperialist who started 3 wars with Israel (1956, 1967, 1967-1970) and called for it’s destruction and the extermination of it’s Jews. He also invaded Yemen and gassed it’s people. He almost went to war with Syria, who dared to break up the United Arab Republic. Saddam, the Nazi that he was, also gassed he’s people (the Kurds) and Iranians. All Muslim organizations (Fatah, PLO, PA, Hamas, Hizballah, IRGC) greet each other with Nazi salutes and all of them openly call for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of its Jews. Hizballah’s and Hamas’s charters could have easily been written by Hitler. And finally, Muslim media is full of the most vile anti-Semitic propaganda and cartoons on a daily basis. Muslim countries (especially Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran) are known to have given haven to Nazi war criminals. Nasser had Nazis working on his rocket program.
Thus just like Nazism persecuted non-Nazis, Jews, Christians, gays and Gypsies so does Islam. Nazism and Islam are very simillar.
Muslims always reply to all the above that all this is because of the existence of Israel or Zionism or “occupation”, but as i will show in my next comment it is not true.
Following are links to back up my claims:
http://islamo-nazism.blogspot.com/
http://www.tellchildrenthetruth.com/gallery/index.html
http://islamthefarleftandmisc.blogspot.com/2009/11/islamonazism-case-of-hajj-amin-al.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400532495168894.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1388161/Mein-Kampf-for-sale-in-Arabic.html
NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR: EXTRA LINKS REMOVED
nnnnn
In #142 meant this kind of “freedom fighters”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g7OaI4_kjeHA-o4UhlmP7vlWmrrwD9CCH4IG0
To Eleonora
Islam’s connection to Nazism:
Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Palestinian leader, met top Nazi officials such as Hitler, Himler, Romel, Eichman and Goebbels to discuss with them the extermination of the Jews of Palestine.
He planned to open a death camp for Jews near Nablus after the Nazis took over Palestine.
He nearly succided in poisoning Tel-Aviv’s wells in order to kill it’s Jews.
He foiled a plan to save thousands of Jewish Children, thus sentencing them to death.
He barred Jews from entering Palestine, thus sentencing them to death.
He’s 1936-1939 terror campaign in Palestine, which killed 500 Jews and expelled many others, was financed by the Nazis.
He had he’s own Muslim Bosnian SS unit who’s “job” was to hunt down Jews, Gypsies and Serbs.
About Jews he had this to say:
Arise, o sons of Arabia,” he exhorted his avid pro- Nazi followers. “Fight for your sacred rights. Slaughter Jews wherever you find them. Their spilled blood pleases Allah, our history and religion. That will save our honor.”
And…
“Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: ‘The Jews are yours.’ ”
As early as 1937 Goebbels praised the Arabs’ “national and racial awareness,” noting that “in Palestine they hoist Nazi flags and deck their homes with swastikas and portraits of Hitler.
Husseini’s followers greeted each other with Nazi salutes, accompanied by loud Heil Hitlers.
Many Palestinians have Nazi names such as Nablus antiquities dealer Abu-Rommel. He derived his moniker from the name he conferred upon his firstborn. Salim el-Mahri, for many years chief of Arafat’s own Force 17, was called Abu-Hitler, since he named his eldest son after the fuehrer and his second Eichmann.
In my next comment I will continue to expose Islam’s connection to Nazism.
Still waiting your reply to comment 22.
Following are a few links to back up my claims:
http://www.tellchildrenthetruth.com/gallery/index.html
http://islamthefarleftandmisc.blogspot.com/2009/11/islamonazism-case-of-hajj-amin-al.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400532495168894.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3248081,00.html
To Omar – yr comment #142/3
I followed yr link and landed on Googles News Home page – the closest I could come (trying to understand what you meant) is the human bomber at the military mosque in Pakistan.
And now? Would you like to see it that the attackers who happen to be Muslims are the sole responsible? Or would you rather like to say that all the “Muslim” leaders and their oppressive, ruthless tyranny bare the brunt of the responsibility? But if you try to paint this as “Islam” based terror … then so be it.
I would assume then that it is safe to insinuate that this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNInWQI-qU&feature=related
is also religion based terror? Or just simple sadistic killing of innocent civilians?
And this too? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0
Religion based terror or simply sadistic torture of innocent civilians?
BTW: the wise man who uttered the above words in an honest moment was Anthony Quainton, U.S. Ambassador to Nicaragua, 1984.
His words were: “If they do it it is terrorism – if we do it it is fighting for freedom.”
Later the phrase was coined: “My terrorist is your freedom fighter” or vice-versa
To Omar – yr comment #145
Sorry I have to pass on that one – I’m not familiar with Somalia. All I know is that it is by definition a “no-state” state. And ever since the invention and bolstering of the little ghost “Al Qaida” with its subsidiaries and local branches and holiday resorts … it is the easiest way out to say:
“This is not Somali work. It is a newly imported idea to destroy Somalia and prevent its people from having stability, peace and their own government,”
What are they talking about? The Somalis don’t know stability and peace since 2 decades. Either it’s their own folks, the neighbors or Uncle Sam – someone is always bombing and terorrizing them.
To Omar – yr comment #145
Sorry – I hit the wrong key.
“Suicide bombings, unheard of in Somalia before 2007, have become increasingly frequent and the lawlessness has raised concerns that al-Qaida is trying to gain a foothold in the Horn of Africa.”
The human bombs exist in Somalia since 2007, Al Qaida “exists since …” – you fill it in or ask the US – and the lawlessness exists (officially) since at least 2 decades … and only now Al Qaida discovers Somalia??
“The anarchy also has allowed piracy to flourish off the country’s coast.” Hhmmm – and who is to blame for it??
>What are they talking about? The Somalis don’t know stability and peace since 2 decades. >Either it’s their own folks, the neighbors or Uncle Sam – someone is always bombing and >terorrizing them.
Nonsense. The instability grew out of some kind of internal fight of Muslims against Muslims. Uncle Sam (The first Bush) was urged to help. Bush sent some peace keeping mission, the locals murdered some 17 of them and dragged their bodies in the streets of Mogadishu. Assume that Somalia’s instability is due to poverty. There outrageously rich countries on the Arabian Peninsula. Couldn’t they help a little?. Iran could send some soldiers (they cannot be called “crusaders” I guess). It could be done. Nevertheless, it is better to blame “crusaders”. Let’s start with that nun who was attending sick women and children in the local hospital.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5353850.stm
Obviously BBC is trying to justify it because the pope quoted something form the medieval text (we discussed it here). What kind of idiots can kill one person because the other said something (if it was the case).
Can you justify massacre after massacre in the Mosques?
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6VD6wVTmAD9CCO6QO2
Read a bit about Somalian civil war. Do not try to point fingers in all directions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War
>Hhmmm – and who is to blame for it??
For sending Americans with the peace keeping mission? United Nations, particularly Muslim countries who criticized America for not intervening in Somalia in the same way as they intervened in Europe on the side of Muslim Albanians. After being savaged by the thugs, Americans lost apetite for helping and withdrew.
I am finishing this discussion. It leads nowhere. Blaming others for Muslim piracy and terror is to avoid responsibility. Remember post #66. Europe may face the same fate if those thugs are allowed to follow on their threats. If there was a piracy around the coast of Egypt it would be the fault of Egypt. If it was around England, England would be to blame. The last time there was piracy in the Mediterranean was when Muslims occupied Sicily and Spain. Who was to blame then???? Don’t be ridiculous. Please!!!!
To Omar – tr comment#150
““The anarchy also has allowed piracy to flourish off the country’s coast.†Hhmmm – and who is to blame for it??” This were your and my comment.
I don’t think it will make a difference but for honesty and clarity: I’m to blame for not formulating more precise in the early morning hours. My apologies.
By no means did I want to say that piracy is the work of others. No. But the anarchy is a combo of the interstate chaos and the mingling of others.
What I simply don’t like is that – as always – it is the MUSLIM piracy, the MUSLIM terror. That’s what is missleading and intended propaganda and incitement against all followersof a religion. Very much like it was the case in Europe of the past against all the Jews.
Whereas when it comes to relentlessly bombing Iraq for 8 years it would never be called CHRISTIAN Terror; bombing Afghanistan to ashes would never be called CHRISTIAN Terror. Destroying almost the entire of Lebanon is never called JEWISH Terror. Destroying all of Gaza and starving and strangeling its people is never called JEWISH war crimes. Using DU amunition on innocent civilians and cause countless and unimaginable horror to parents who have deformed babies as a result who look like heaps of flesh and monsters is never called CHRISTIAN attrocities. Dropping 1 ton bombs and white phosporus and using unknown chemicals on innocent civilians is never called JEWISH wanton aggression. And so on and so forth.
That’s what is fundamentally wrong in discussions like this. I am sick and tired of this hypocrisy, bigottery and/or doublestandards with which the “bunch” is brainwashing unassuming people and are, therefore, to the biggest part responsible for religious tensions equal to those from a time long gone – or so we normal people thought.
Address you last sentence to yourself and “the bunch”. Stop crying foul when you yourself (singular and plural) do nothing but twisting the fact and operating with half truths and lies in order that at the end one can always somehow and in some way cry: “Ha! See! I told you so – it’s the Muslims!”
>Whereas when it comes to relentlessly bombing Iraq for 8 years it would >never be called CHRISTIAN Terror; bombing Afghanistan to ashes would >never be called CHRISTIAN Terror. Destroying almost the entire of >Lebanon is never called JEWISH Terror.
I am sick and tired that you don’t understand that bombing Christian Serbs to give their territory to Muslim Albanians WAS NOT a Christian terror. It was a state operation under auspices of international organizations. I am sick and tired that you cannot comprehend that Christians live in countries where there is separation of Church and state, which is not the case in Islam. I am sick and tired that you cannot see the difference between killing a nun taking care of women and children and the act of war where atrocities happen but they are not deliberate. If you blow up the bomb in the Mosque full of innocents, this is a DELIBERATE ACT OF TERROR. Yet, these guys believe that they go to heaven. You are clearly an intelligent person but you sorely disappoint me by discussion at this level. People a subject to kill. There were killers in all religions. However, most religions condemn killing. Islam allows it. This makes the difference.
Dear Omar,
We thank you for your dilligence, especially in the face of one of the most obstinant deniers of Islam I have ever read, our friend Eleonora. She is truly a “misunderstander of Islam” if there ever was one.
For example, she proclaims “Christians should not imitate Christ and neither should the Muslims imitate Mohamed”. Oh really?? As you so perceptively pointed out, that is NOT the case in Christianity. Christians are encouraged to imitate Jesus because he led a totally righteous life.
Likewise, Muslims ARE mandated to imitate Mohammed. It says so right there in Koran, yet she chooses to ignore, deny or reject it. She is walking a fine line of apostacy in rejecting the Koran amd Muhammed.
Concerning the atomic bombings of Hiroshima & Nagasaki, we can all agree that these were truly horrible events. But these bombings were done for one reason only – to END the worst war in human history (well, 2nd worst, after the 1,400 year old global Islamic Jihad). There can be no doubt that they accomplished their goal. (One of my relatives is a survivor of Hiroshima, incidentally).
We need to keep educating non-Muslims and challenging Muslims about the truth about what is taught in the Koran, the brutal sociopathy of Muhammed, Islamic Jihad and the savage history of Islamic imperialism.
Best regards,
~ The Infidel Alliance
Comment removed by moderator
ignore such politicians..
Question:
If a man has sex with a 9 year old girl and it is not paedophilia, what is it? Child rape?
~The Infidel Alliance
To Omar – yr comment #
For your problem of being sick and tired I would recommend you take 2 Panadol and get a good sleep. But as you’re not Muslim – despite your “name” – I ‘d say take a good Calvados (I recommend Père Magloire as being the best), sip it slowly and then go to sleep.
Boy oh boy – are you a bigot and hypocrite, sorry I can’t help myself.
Just for the sake to keep the records straight – this one “incident” of “bombing Christian Serbs to give their territory to Muslim Albanians WAS NOT a Christian terror.” was naturally not mentioned by me as an act of Christian terror. You have to accept though that I don’t accept this distraction into the Balkan war as this is a much too complex issue with too many players to start disecting it in this forum. Passe.
“I am sick and tired that you cannot see the difference between killing a nun taking care of women and children and the act of war where atrocities happen but they are not deliberate. If you blow up the bomb in the Mosque full of innocents, this is a DELIBERATE ACT OF TERROR.”
Gaza: A 1 ton bomb on a district of a densly populated city in order to kill ONE so-called terrorist – perfectly well knowing that he will blow to smithereens umpteen INNOCENT CIVILIANS … this is called what? Non-deliberate civil casualties?
Iraq, Gaza, Afghanistan and Lebanon: Dropping DU amunition, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, etc. on inhabited areas in order to teach the population “a lesson” … this is called what? Deliberate act of love?
South Lebanon: Telling civilians that they should leave their houses as they (the houses) will be bombarded in 2 hours … and then bombarding the only route on which these civilians can leave is called what? Friendly fire? Exchange of good neighbourly greetings?
Or do you really fool yourself into believing that just because it’s done in the most cowardly way possible from high above in the safety of an F16 or Apache unto a defensless civilian population it makes it more humane and more human?
And please spare us all this melodramatic “nun taking care of women and children” – what’s the difference between this and DELIBARATELY bombarding wedding parties and fleeing civilians?
The 1st difference is that the human bomb who detonates himself has nothing else to fight with whereas the oppressor and his heroic “soldiers cum murderers and war criminals” are just too much of a coward to fight on one-to-one basis.
The 2nd difference is that the MSM is complicit in covering up these countless incidents of crimes against humanity inflicted by the oppressors and aggressors against a helpless civilian population whereas each and every pin drop of the fighters against oppression from within and from outside is played umpteen time over and again.
Never forget that history is always written by the victorious party. But the way to “victory” is today meticulously recorded thanks to the technical means at hand and thanks to journalists like Fisk and Solomon to name but two who do not give in to death threats and/or other pressure. Like it or not: History repeats itself until justice is done.
“One of my best friends is a Jew, incidentially” said the Christian Nazi after he was caught. “Oh, really! One of my best friends was black” said the member of the Christian KuKluxKlan after he clubbed some blacks and hung them on the tree. “If you don’t mind me saying so – one of my best friends was a Muslim” said the Christian Islamophobe after he ordered dropping some bombs on the heads of the innocent civilians of Fallujah.
It is simply sickening.
~*~*~
Excerpts about Hiroshima and Nagasaki:
July 1945 – Japan’s peace messages
Still, the messages from Togo to Sato, read by the U.S. at the time, clearly indicated that Japan was seeking to end the war:
• July 11: “make clear to Russia… We have no intention of annexing or taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result of the war; we hope to terminate the war”.
• July 12: “it is His Majesty’s heart’s desire to see the swift termination of the war”.
• July 13: “I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war” (for above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879).
• July 18: “Negotiations… necessary… for soliciting Russia’s good offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for negotiations with England and America.” (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
• July 22: “Special Envoy Konoye’s mission will be in obedience to the Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government.” The July 21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the Emperor’s emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
• July 25: “it is impossible to accept unconditional surrender under any circumstances, but we should like to communicate to the other party through appropriate channels that we have no objection to a peace based on the Atlantic Charter.” (U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 2, pg. 1260 – 1261).
• July 26: Japan’s Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: “The aim of the Japanese Government with regard to Prince Konoye’s mission is to enlist the good offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war.” (Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).
ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY
(Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman)
“It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.
“The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”
- William Leahy, I Was There, pg. 441.
HERBERT HOOVER
On May 28, 1945, Hoover visited President Truman and suggested a way to end the Pacific war quickly: “I am convinced that if you, as President, will make a shortwave broadcast to the people of Japan – tell them they can have their Emperor if they surrender, that it will not mean unconditional surrender except for the militarists – you’ll get a peace in Japan – you’ll have both wars over.”
Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 347.
On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Hoover wrote to Army and Navy Journal publisher Colonel John Callan O’Laughlin, “The use of the atomic bomb, with its indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul.”
quoted from Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 635.
“…the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945…up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; …if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs.”
- quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142
Hoover biographer Richard Norton Smith has written: “Use of the bomb had besmirched America’s reputation, he [Hoover] told friends. It ought to have been described in graphic terms before being flung out into the sky over Japan.”
Richard Norton Smith, An Uncommon Man: The Triumph of Herbert Hoover, pg. 349-350.
In early May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded in his diary, “I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives would be accomplished. MacArthur said that was correct and that we would have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia into Manchuria.”
Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, pg. 350-351.
~*~*~
Another one of the big lies which has cost 1/4 million civilian lifes in the name of what … ???
Mental bankruptcy is not easy to deal with as exemplified in the continuous poping-up question:
“If a man has sex with a 9 year old girl and it is not paedophilia, what is it? Child rape?”
Answer: It’s not paedophilia, it’s not child rape – it’s simply a lie.
Thank you one more time, Egyptian, for this link: http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm in English
In my comment # 125 I listed the usual crap with which our friends the Islamophobes come up with – a pattern which I follow in the internet since 12 years.
Now Qumran brakes the list in that he comes with the Nazi-connection. This is usually at the very end, when every thing else has been exhausted = # 16 on my list. What ever happened to # 14 and 15??
It’s not worth to address this nonsense but this inserted note by Qumran “He also tried to poison Tel-Aviv’s wells in order to kill it’s Jews.†made me remember the book I read by Naeim Giladi, called “The Jews of Iraqâ€:
(Excerpt)
“I was disillusioned at what I found in the Promised Land, disillusioned personally, disillusioned at the institutionalized racism, disillusioned at what I was beginning to learn about Zionism’s cruelties. The principal interest Israel had in Jews from Islamic countries was as a supply of cheap labor, especially for the farm work that was beneath the urbanized Eastern European Jews. Ben Gurion needed the “Oriental†Jews to farm the thousands of acres of land left by Palestinians who were driven out by Israeli forces in 1948.
And I began to find out about the barbaric methods used to rid the fledgling state of as many Palestinians as possible. The world recoils today at the thought of bacteriological warfare, but Israel was probably the first to actually use it in the Middle East. In the 1948 war, Jewish forces would empty Arab villages of their populations, often by threats, sometimes by just gunning down a half-dozen unarmed Arabs as examples to the rest. To make sure the Arabs couldn’t return to make a fresh life for themselves in these villages, the Israelis put typhus and dysentery bacteria into the water wells.
Uri Mileshtin, an official historian for the Israeli Defense Force, has written and spoken about the use of bacteriological agents. According to Mileshtin, Gen. Moshe Dayan, former Israeli Defense Minister, gave orders in 1948 to remove Arabs from their villages, bulldoze their homes, and render water wells unusable with typhus and dysentery bacteria.
I heard a corroborating account myself from a technician with Mekorot, the Israeli Water Authority, who was testing a well near a construction site where I was working. I asked him what he was doing. Assuming I had fought in 1948, he said, “Don’t you remember? We used bacteria in many places. Every village we occupied we put bacteria in the wells. Now we keep testing them to keep track of when it is safe to use them again.â€
Bacteriological agents were used elsewhere in 1948. Acre was so situated that it could practically defend itself with one big gun, so the Haganah put bacteria into the spring that fed the town. The spring was called Capri and it ran from the north near a kibbutz. The Haganah put typhus bacteria into the water going to Acre, the people got sick, and the Jewish forces occupied Acre. This worked so well that they sent a Haganah division dressed as Arabs into Gaza, where there were Egyptian forces, and the Egyptians caught them putting two cans of bacteria, typhus and dysentery, into the water supply in wanton disregard of the civilian population. “In war, there is no sentiment,†one of the captured Haganah men was quoted as saying.
My activism in Israel began shortly after I received a letter from the Socialist/Zionist Party asking me to help with their Arabic newspaper.â€
(Note: Mileshtin was quoted by the Israeli daily, Hadashot, in an article published August 13, 1993. The writer, Sarah Laybobis-Dar, interviewed a number of Israelis who had knowledge of the use of bacteriological weapons in the 1948 war. Mileshtin said bacteria was used to poison the wells of every village emptied of its Arab inhabitants.)
It seems to me that Qumran is mixing up things here … question is: intentionally?
Zionists and Nazis hand in hand
We “learned as breaking news” about the Nazi-Mufti relationshsip – something which is elaborately analysed in good history books and is common knowledge.
How come we never hear about the collaboration of the Zionists with the Nazi resp. their offers to the Nazis? Is it too shameful to address? Not even by honest historians? Because it is politically too embarassing?
We learn from David Yisraeli, “The Palestine Problem in German Politics, 1889-1945″, Bar Ilan University, Ramat Gan, Israel, 1974 the following:
~*~*~
[Stern Gang]
Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War
on the Side of Germany (1941)
It is often stated in the speeches and utterances of the leading statesmen of National Socialist Germany that a prerequisite of the New Order in Europe requires the radical solution of the Jewish question through evacuation (“Jew-free Europeâ€).
The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish people, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historic boundaries.
The solving in this manner of the Jewish problem, thus bringing with it once and for all the liberation of the Jewish people, is the objective of the political activity and the years-long struggle of the Israeli freedom movement, the National Military Organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi) in Palestine.
The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:
1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,
3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.
Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively lake part in the war on Germany’s side.
This offer by the NMO, covering activity in the military, political and information fields, in Palestine and, according to our determined preparations, outside Palestine, would be connected to the military training and organizing of Jewish manpower in Europe, under the leadership and command of the NMO. These military units would take part in the fight to conquer Palestine, should such a front be decided upon.
The indirect participation of the Israeli freedom movement in the New Order in Europe, already in the preparatory stage, would be linked with a positive-radical solution of the European Jewish problem in conformity with the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Jewish people. This would extraordinarily strengthen the moral basis of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.
The cooperation of the Israeli freedom movement would also be along the lines of one of the last speeches of the German Reich Chancellor, in which Herr Hitler emphasized that he would utilize every combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England.
A brief general view of the formation, essence, and activity of the NMO in Palestine:
The NMO developed partly out of the Jewish self-defense in Palestine and the Revisionist movement (New Zionist Organization), with which the NMO was loosely connected through the person of Mr. V. Jabotinsky until his death.
The pro-English attitude of the Revisionist Organization in Palestine, which prevented the renewal of the personal union, led in the autumn of this year to a complete break between it and the NMO as well as to a thereupon following split in the Revisionist movement.
The goal of the NMO is the establishment of the Jewish state within its historic borders.
The NMO, in contrast to all Zionist trends, rejects colonizatory infiltration as the only means of making accessible and gradually taking possession of the fatherland and practices its slogan, the struggle and the sacrifice, as the only true means for the conquest and liberation of Palestine.
On account of its militant character and its anti-English disposition the NMO is forced, under constant persecutions by the English administration, to exercise its political activity and the military training of its members in Palestine in secret.
The NMO, whose terrorist activities began as early as the autumn of the year 1936, became, after the publication of the British White Papers, especially prominent in the summer of 1939 through successful intensification of its terroristic activity and sabotage of English properly. At that lime these activities, as well as daily secret radio broadcasts, were noticed and discussed by virtually the entire world press.
The NMO maintained independent political offices in Warsaw, Paris. London and New York until the beginning of the war.
The office in Warsaw was mainly concerned with the military organization and training of the national Zionist youth and was closely connected with the Jewish masses who, especially in Poland, sustained and enthusiastically supported, in every manner, the fight of the NMO in Palestine. Two newspapers were published in Warsaw (The Deed and Liberated Jerusalem): these were organs of the NMO.
The office in Warsaw maintained close relations with the former Polish government and those military circles, who brought greatest sympathy and understanding towards the aims of the NMO. Thus, in the year 1939 selected groups of NMO members were sent from Palestine to Poland, where their military training was completed in barracks by Polish officers.
The negotiations, for the purpose of activating and concertizing their aid, took place between the NMO and the Polish government in Warsaw – the evidence of which can easily be found in the archives of the former Polish government – were terminated because of the beginning of the war.
The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in its ideology and structure.
The fighting capacity of the NMO could never be paralyzed or seriously weakened, neither through strong defensive measures by the English administration and the Arabs, nor by those of the Jewish socialists.
~*~*~
The original document of the Stern Gang (one of its members becoming later a Prime Minister of Israel) is archived in the Foreign Ministry of Germany, Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E224152 and E234155-58. At Dr. Yisraeli’s you find it on pages 315 – 317.
Another book I recommend to read is “Zionism in the Age of the Dictators” by Lenni Brenner – quite informativ.
It shows the old saying as being true: “A good Jew is not a Zionist – a Zionist can never be a good Jew”
Dear Eleonora,
You are a prolific writer indeed, andparticularly skilled at diverting the issue. Somehow you have changed the topic from “Was Muhammed a Paedophile?” to “America is Evil Because They Ended the Worst War in History with the Biggest Bombs Ever Used”.
Let’s get back to the topic.
For arguments sake, let’s assume Muhammed was not a pedophile or a child rapist. Instead, let’s address the real underlying question:
Were Muhammeds sexual activities moral and did they set a proper, universal example for all men?
Let’s recap:
- Muhammed had 11 – 13 wives: Double digit polygamy…wicked fun or just wicked?
- Muhammed restricted other men to only 1 – 4 wives: Prophetic privilege or single digit double standard?
- Muhammed married his adopted son’s wife: Cool or creepy kinky?
- Muhammed married in the afternoon the wife of a man he had killed in the morning: Repulsive or reverential?
- Muhammed had sex with captured women of the tribes he slaughtered: Sex slavery….icky or interesting?
- Muhammed distributed captured women from the tribes he slaughtered to his merry men: Sex trafficking…honorable or horrible?
I’ll reserve my opinion……what do you think Eleonora? Sexual role model to be admired and emulated or perverted sexual deviant?
~The Infidel Alliance
Or more simply……..
Were the sexual adventures of Muhammed properly representative of the final prophet of God?
~The Infidel Alliance
……a ‘holy’ prophet??
Isn’t it curious how 52 year old Muhammeds marriage to 6 year old Aisha is dismissed out of hand, and Daniela Santanche’s comments are derided as a ‘diatribe’ at the same time Bikya Masr runs an article entitled:
“Egypt minister: shocking number of under-age girls married to elderly Arab men”
A bit of irony there, wouldn’t you say?
~ The Infidel Alliance
To Whom It May Concern
While there is a logical and moral answer to the dumb and repetitive questions posed by a single-purpose one-track minded individual (or organization?) and despite the cheap attempts to agitate I do refuse to contribute to the contents of the garbage can. Let the “Alliance†et al take care of that, something they can do best.
Knowingly lying and deliberately putting in trash doesn’t in my opinion warrant an answer.
The pathological obsession with pedophilia and sex in general seems to indicate that there is a buried childhood complex and/or problem. Maybe it would be time to address this/these rather than slandering other people.
Dear Eleonora,
I don’t usually like to make personal comments, but your unwillingness to address this issue shows that you are simply a coward, pressured and cowed by pro-Islamic political correctness that you simply cannot face the FACTS.
Facts, Eleonora. Facts.
~The Infidel Alliance
What were the reasons for the Prophet’s marriages?
Prophet Mohamed was 25 years old when he married Khadija, his first wife, who was fifteen years his senior and had been married twice. She remained his wife for 28 years until she died and he did not marry any other woman during this period of his life.
The Prophet’s nature, character, and way of life before and after his prophet hood are absolute proof that he was neither lustful nor sensuous. How could a man who was more than fifty years old suddenly change and become a slave to lust, when he had had every opportunity as a young man to follow his desires, in common with the other young men of his tribe. On the contrary, Mohamed was well known for his virtue, and his only wife who was a virgin was Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, while most of his wives were widows whom he married for humane reasons or in order to enforce a religious observance or ruling and not for any sensuous desire on his part.
As regards to his marriage to Sawda, daughter of Zam’a, who was the widow of one of his companions, he was more than fifty years old at the time, and she was neither beautiful, wealthy, nor of noble descent. He married her in order to care for and support the family of his companion, who had suffered torture and death for his faith in God.
His marriage to Aisha, daughter of Abu Bakr, and Hafsa, daughter of Omar, at later dates were in order to strengthen the ties between himself and his companions Abu Bakr and Omar.
Um Salama was the widow of a martyr who had been mortally wounded in the battle of Uhud. She was an old woman and when the Prophet proposed marriage to her she tried to excuse herself from accepting because of her age, but the Prophet consoled her and married her for humane reasons.
The Prophet married Ramlah, daughter of Abu Sufyan, who had emigrated to Abyssinia with her husband who had renounced Islam, became a Christian and had abandoned her, leaving her without any maintenance. The Prophet sent a message to Al-Majashi, who ruled Abyssinia, requesting Ramlah’s return to her homeland to deliver her from the estrangement which she felt in a foreign land and to deliver her from the persecution of her own pagan family in Mecca had she been forced to return to them. The Prophet also hoped that by this marriage her influential father in Mecca might be induced to embrace Islam.
The Prophet married Jawayriyya, daughter of Al Harith, who was among the captives captured at the battle of Bani Al Mustalaq. Her father was the chief and master of his tribe and the Prophet married her in order to liberate her from captivity and he requested the Muslims to liberate their captives and set them free.
The Prophet married Safiyya who was the daughter of the chief of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. She was allowed to choose between returning to her people or being set free by marrying the Prophet and she preferred to marry the Prophet to returning to her tribe.
The Prophet’s marriage to his cousin Zaynab, daughter of Jahsh, was in order to establish a religious ruling. She had been married to Zayd Ibn Haritha, the Prophet’s adopted son. Their marriage did not last long and she was divorced. It was the custom of the Arabs during that period to prohibit any marriage between a man and his adopted son’s divorced wife. The Prophet was ordered by God to marry Zaynab in order to abolish this ruling which was totally unnecessary. See Sura 33, Verse 37.
To me it seems that the Prophet’s reasons for marrying were quite moral and noble except for Aisha, Hafsa and Ramlah who he married for rather political reasons. The latter can hardly be called uniquely Islamic …
A word to polygamy:
Islam was not the first religion to permit polygamy nor did Islam introduce it. Islam was the first religion to organize marriage and to limit the number of wives according to strict stipulations
The abolition of unjust and brutal customs practiced for generations by issuing one command is impossible. Islam took this into consideration and made a series of laws by which it was able to enforce a gradual abolition of the hitherto unlimited number of wives that men were allowed to marry.
Islam limited the number of wives to four (4:3) and conditioned it to treating them equally. Since equal treatment of wives is impossible, however hard a person tries, a man should marry only one wife (4:129 states that this is impossible even if it is ones ardent desire to do so).
Islam dealt with the matter in a practical manner without causing a violent reaction among the community. In Islam monogamy is the rule and polygamy the exception. Islam permitted this exception in certain cases such as during and after battles in which many men were killed leaving widows and orphans without any means of support. Consequently, marriage to such women is a virtue for it provides them with a decent life and protection.
The two permissible reasons for marrying a second wife are a) if a woman is afflicted with a chronic disease which makes her unable to perform her marital obligations of b) if she is sterile. The husband under these circumstances is permitted to marry another wife (with the consent of the first one or give her a divorce if she requests so) who will be entitled to the rights of the first wife.
To the administrator
Being aware of the fact that calling me names like in comment #170 (only one of numerous examples) is nothing but a sign of mental bankruptcy I, nonetheless, don’t accept it. Due to lack of a proper log-in with declaring one’s correct name and address to the forum administrator as well as due to lack of basic guidelines of behaviour in the fora of Bikya Masr the door is wide open for such kind of internet vandalism and terrorism.
I do not, however, call for censorship but I do call for observance of basic decent behaviour which should guide adult discussions.
I would highly recommend to the administrator to set-up a proper log-in and some mandatory rules as it seems there are still people who lack the basic n-etiquettes and who try to kill any meaningful discussion and/or exchange of view points in pursuit of their dirty agenda – as is evidenced here in the forum of BM. Every decent person withdraws sooner or later from the discussion.
We have seen the very same pattern in forums of the “FAZâ€, the “WWâ€, the “Alternet†as well as “Znet†to name but a few. FAZ had to finally resort to the last possibility and abolish the forum as a consequence altogether. I would like to highlight the point that the “derailment” was always without any exception caused by “well meaning alliances against the evil of Islam” and conducted exactly in the very same manner as it was conducted against the Jews and their religion in the Third Reich under Adolf Hitler.
It is sad but it doesn’t help if we close our eyes to the obvious – an increased and forceful drive to torpedo any attempt of understanding between religions and the people thereof by slandering and agitating. It seems they are driven by fear that someone who is seeking knowledge might be able to learn how normal people (in this case Muslims) without agenda think and live their everyday life. There are people who try to understand and respect each other although they adhere to different faith. But obviously it is not “allowed” to be.
In other words: they fear that those who are seeking the truth about any subject might be able to do so.
I do not believe that this is the intention why you have created a platform for your readers to comment on your articles and to exchange their viewpoints.
Or am I wrong?
Dear Eleonora,
Yes, you are wrong. This is a free forum, the marketplace of ideas. I simply ask hard questions and ask for truthful answers, whereas you cut and paste sweeping tomes and dodge questions.
Internet “vandalism and terrorism”? LOL!! You have GOT to be kidding! The only calls for violence against anyone in this forum have come from the quotes of Muhammed, not me. Are you suggesting we should BAN MUHAMMED from this forum?
Eleonora….quit your whining!! You complain about my nom-de plume, but how do we know that “Eleonora” is your real name? And why do you hide by not posting your full name?
As the old saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen!
Now, once again…..in your rambling defense of Muhammeds 11 – 13 wives, you beat the drum of Muhammeds sexual “virtue”, but once again dodge the main question. Any pervert in jail can cook up a hundred justifications for his sexual deviance, and the “helping them” reason is surely one of the most common and most repulsive.
What is your defense for Muhammeds sex slaves and concubines referenced in Koran (4:24) – “And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess.”? HELLO! Was he just “helping them” too?
Concerning the argument about having as many wives as one can support….just how exactly did Muhammed support his 11 – 13 wives, and harem of sex slaves and concubines? What business or line of commerce did he have to make money to support them?
We know that initially, Muhammed mooched off his first wife’s successful trading business. But when he burned through all his wife’s money, he turned to attacking other peoples trade caravans and looting them.
That’s how he got the resources to support his harem of wives, and where he got his supply of sex slaves. Correct?? Please be bold enough and honest enough to answer this.
So….in summary, Muhammeds example of sexual morality:
And because as the observant child bride/prodigy Aisha said to Muhammad: “You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses’ Muslim (4:1039)
1) Muhammed could have as many wives as he wanted because he was ‘helping’ them and could support them equally.
2) It was OK for Muhammed to support or ‘help’ his wives by killing other people and stealing their property.
3) After killing other people and stealing their property to support his wives, it was OK for Muhammed to take the widows and girls as sex slaves and add them to his harem.
4) It’s virtuous for Muhammed to ‘marry’ a little first grade 6year old girl in the name of politics, as long as he waits until she is in third grade before he has sex with her.
5) Pathetic ‘normal’ Muslim men can only have 2, 3 or 4 wives (Koran 4:3), but they CAN have sex slaves taken from people they killed for loot (Koran 4:23) .
6) Muslims can rape their wifes whenever they desire, regardless of the wifes wishes: Koran (2:223) – “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will…”
7) Muslim men can do all this and discriminate against women and subjugate them because of ‘the deficiency in her intelligence’ and “the deficiency in her religion” (Bukhari 6:301)
And on, and on, and on…….
So once again…..back to the real question raised by this article: in terms of human sexuality, was Muhammed
a) simply a “helpful” red-blooded lady lovin’ ‘holy prophet’ who we should admire and emulate, or
b) just a bloodthirsty mysogonistic pervert?
Best regards,
~The Infidel Alliance
Mental bankruptcy is calling terrible criminals “freedom fighters”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/08/AR2009120800587.html
No matter what your “wise men” say, these are criminals. I was shocked when you hinted that these are “freedom fighters” which is telling me that deep down you believe that they are justified by your religion. I can see that no matter what the crimes, you will continue to justify them or blame Christians (conveniently overlooking that the leader of Christianity John Paul II was adamantly against the war in Iraq based on his religion). These criminals in Iraq are killing with the name of Allah on their lips and convinced they are going straight to sensual pleasures). This is what makes this discussion counterproductive.
To Omar – yr comment #174
“I was shocked when you hinted that these are “freedom fighters†which is telling me that deep down you believe that they are justified by your religion.” Why can’t we stay with facts, ya Omar? What would you have come up with if these terrible attacks didn’t take place today? Anything will do in order not to address for once my genuine points which I layed out in my comment #160 I guess.
You know something like “Naturally I condemn these attrocities and war crimes too†… “genuine†as such a lip sevice might be. That you’d distanc yourself as a person from it – something you (singular and plural) always ask instantly and incessantly of the Muslim community.
I can give you the names, status (combatant [military and settlers] and civilians) and age of the Israeli victims since 2000. Sure the same is available from the “allied terrorists†e.g. a proper body count. The body count web site set up by Switzerland at the onset of the aggression war against Iraq was taken off the net within 9 hours under tremendous pressure … I guess from the Muslims?! Why?
I have witnessed the 1st Gulf war from a “hair thin distanceâ€. We’ve had countless BBQ dinners for pilots and unit commanders as well as marines and listened to their combat stories which were nothing but sheer slaughter and bombing of whatever moved. Does anyone care to know how many hundreds of thousands have died on the other side? Or at leas the Egyptians who were at the heart of the front line and whose casualties are classified top secret info? Afghanistan? The Balkans? Does anyone of “you†care to know? No.
Is it truly beyond your ability to comprehend that the defense of one’s home land has nothing to do with religion? While I do not at all deny that some are probably also motivated by their religious beliefs it is a fact that the absolute majority are not some obscure “foreign insurgents” but rather Iraqis (in this case) who do want THEIR country to be free of an oppressor and aggressor who installed his puppets. Do I really need to tell you that the sectarian violence was counted in from before the start? Do you truly believe that I’m so naïve?
The Iraqi people want THEIR resources, THEIR way of life and THEIR freedom the way they see fit – and not the way the occupier wants it to be. They do have the right to fight for their freedom as is layed out in the UDHR and the 4th Geneva Convention to which all states are signatories. And yes, it also states the same values and principles in the Qur’an.
Why is it, that patrotism and nationalism is only “good” and acceptable – actualy a must – when it comes from the West? After 9/11 every Western politician would have rather gone nacked than without his flag in his lapel. Why is this OK and cheered on but when it comes to non-Western countries and on top of it Muslim countries then everyone is up in arms? Gamal Abdel Nasser who instilled some national pride the declare villain?
Let me put it to you frank and square: If your home country shuld be attacked by “A” for whatever reason(s) … be it your geo-location – your resources – because you’re a thorn in the side of XYZ – because you become too ambitious – wouldn’t you take to the arms? If your country should be occupied and would have as a result of the aggression a puppet regime installed with an unlawful constitution would you not go in the underground and fight with all you have? Would you and your folks then consider yourself to be a terrorist or a freedom fighter? Or would you go to the occupier, slap him on his hand and say: “No-no, sshhh, you’re a bad boy – can you please leave my country and go home?”
And yes, faithful Muslims like faithful Christians and Jews dye with the name of God on their lips. Strange, huh?
Thanks for the link to the WP-article. Don’t read it too attentive as you may find it disturbing for your inner peace: “… — the passing of an election law on Sunday and the upcoming auction of oil field contracts to foreign companies — …”. Yes, I assume this would motivate some religious fanatics …
BTW – what do you think these terrorists are motivated by? “…deputy official in the Basra governorate, said that police had “caught two non-Iraqis, who seem to be Britons and were in a car of the Cressida type. It was a booby-trapped car laden with ammunition and was meant to explode in the centre of the city of Basra in the popular market.†… “Two British SAS soldiers had been caught undercover dressed as Arabs, loaded with explosives and anti-tank weaponry [5], acting uncooperatively at a routine checkpoint, and opening fire on police when approached.” For the whole article go to: http://world.mediamonitors.net/headlines/caught_red_handed_british_undercover_operatives_in_iraq. This is just one of many documented undercover operations in Iraq.
You’ll find quite a number of confirmed operations also by the US military contractor Blackwater. Google or read Jeremy Scahill’s book “Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army†or read the transcripts of the various Congress hearings. It’s all there for everybody to see. Now who’s responsible for the today’s attack? I frankly don’t know. It can be them or them.
To Omar – yr comment #174 (continued)
Everyone talks about this uttely cowardly act of “Muslim” terrorism – going by the comon trend here should we now blame the ones who invented the car bombs? The truck bombs? The ones who introduced them to the Arab (Christian and Muslim) world? Or should we one more time blame Prophet Mohamed and the Qur’an?
As you seem to be interested in terror attacks and car bombs I recommend you read the following essay by Mike Davis. Do you think these people were motivated by: religion? hate? expansionism? hegemony? greed and power hunger? By what?
History of the Car Bomb (Part 1)
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76140/
“Anonymity, in addition, greatly recommends car bombs to those who like to disguise their handiwork, including the CIA, the Israeli Mossad, the Syrian GSD, the Iranian Pasdaran, and the Pakistani ISI — all of whom have caused unspeakable carnage with such devices.”
“They (the Jewish Stern Gang) had a fierce and well-deserved reputation for the originality of their operations and the unexpectedness of their attacks. On January 12, 1947, as part of their campaign to prevent any compromise between mainstream Zionism and the British Labor government, they exploded a powerful truck bomb in the central police station in Haifa, resulting in 144 casualties. Three months later, they repeated the tactic in Tel Aviv, blowing up the Sarona police barracks (5 dead) with a stolen postal truck filled with dynamite.
In December 1947, following the UN vote to partition Palestine, full-scale fighting broke out between Jewish and Arab communities from Haifa to Gaza. The Stern Gang, which rejected anything less than the restoration of a biblical Israel, now gave the truck bomb its debut as a weapon of mass terror. On January 4, 1948, two men in Arab dress drove a truck ostensibly loaded with oranges into the center of Jaffa and parked it next to the New Seray Building, which housed the Palestinian municipal government as well as a soup-kitchen for poor children. They cooly lingered for coffee at a nearby café before leaving a few minutes ahead of the detonation.”
“Car bombs began to regularly terrorize Moslem West Beirut in the fall of 1981, apparently as part of an Israeli strategy to evict the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) from Lebanon. The Israeli secret service, the Mossad, had previously employed car bombs in Beirut to assassinate Palestinian leaders (novelist Ghassan Kanfani in July 1972, for example), so no one was especially surprised when evidence emerged that Israel was sponsoring the carnage. According to Middle Eastern schoalr Rashid Khalidi, “A sequence of public confessions by captured drivers made clear these [car bombings] were being utilized by the Israelis and their Phalangist allies to increase the pressure on the PLO to leave.”
Many more examples are to be found with respect to CIA, IRA, Mafia et al. Highly interesting also the second part:
“Return to Sender” (Car Bombs, Part 2)
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76824/mike_davis_return_to_sender_car_bombs_part_2_
Incidentially – are you aware as of who the first “suicide bomber†was?
(Excerpt from “Letter From Israel†by Ran HaCohen, September 2000)
“The First Suicide Bomber
One moment before the Sons of Light wage war on the Sons of Darkness, when the former are purported to be “the Judeo-Christian Culture,” whereas the latter, “the Arab-Moslem Culture,” is identified with suicide bombers as its inherent, constitutive trait, let us commemorate the first suicide bomber, who prayed to God to die killing thousands.
“Now the house was full of men and women; and all the lords of the Philistines were there; and there were upon the roof about three thousand men and women, that beheld while Samson made sport. And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes. And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left. And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.” (Judges 16:27-30, King James version)
Neither Moslem nor Arab, the first suicide bomber was Samson, adored as hero in both Christian and Jewish tradition through the ages.â€
~*~*~
“You righteous” people who fight Islam to their teeth think that all you need to say is: “I wouldn’t follow him” (meaning the Western Zionist-Christian leaders) and with this statement everything is said and done. It is NOT and we all know that. “You” elect your killers twice and trice to their offical positions, cheer them on and continue with your lifes. You’ve done your duties. And please stop telling me that Christ didn’t do that because we’re talking about what people who follow XYZ teachings are doing TODAY.
Islam teaches it’s followers to fight enslavement and oppression. Is there anything wrong with that? Throughout history freedom fighters where the declared heroes who were allowed to fight with whatever meager weapons they had or could put their hands on.
Except that today, when it comes to freedom fighters being also Muslims did they become terrorists. The oppressed who has been deprived of his basic (human) rights has not the right to fight against it because he is Muslim and the terror and injustice is “administered†unto him by the Zionist-Christian alliance?!
Excuse me?!
~*~*~
Before I forget: yes il Pappa di Roma condemned the war against Iraq – so did countles Islamic leaders as well as the Rabbi for Human Rights, Naurei Karta, Yesh Gvul and Gush Shalom. And? They are not the ones in power nor do they have any (meager as they may be) means to force anyone to listen to their protests.
To Omar – yr comment #174
Just in case you’re truly interested and have some empathy left: did you ever consider or at least think about what is being done to the canon fodder or the “Western Alliance”?
Go and read “The Psychological Implosion of Our Soldiers” at Globalresearch (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16446). There are countles time bombs waiting to explode in one way or another. The referenced article is only one example.
Or would you like to understand how mothers and fathers must feel? Go and read: “Toxic munitions cause of baby deaths and deformities in Fallujah” at http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16442
THIS is terror in its worst possible form and lasting for decades to come.
Dear Eleonora and Omar,
Please stick to the topic raised by Italian politician Daniela Santanche, and addressed in my post #173 above:
In terms of human sexuality, was Muhammed
a) simply a “helpful†red-blooded lady lovin’ ‘holy prophet’ who we should admire and emulate, or
b) just a bloodthirsty mysogonistic promiscuous pervert?
Best regards,
~The Infidel Alliance
To Omar – yr comment # 174
BTW – you may also want to check out this:
State-Sponsored Terror: British and American Black Ops in Iraq
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9447
“Specifically, the plan “recommends the creation of a super-Intelligence Support Activity, an organization it dubs the Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG), to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence and cover and deception. For example, the Pentagon and CIA would work together to increase human intelligence (HUMINT) forward/operational presence and to deploy new clandestine technical capabilities.” The purpose of P2OG would be in “‘stimulating reactions’ among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction, meaning it would prod terrorist cells into action, thus exposing them to ‘quick-response’ attacks by US forces.”[2] In other words, commit terror to incite terror, in order to react to terror.
The Los Angeles Times reported in 2002 that, “The Defense Department is building up an elite secret army with resources stretching across the full spectrum of covert capabilities. New organizations are being created. The missions of existing units are being revised,” and quoted then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld as saying, “Prevention and preemption are … the only defense against terrorism.”[3] Chris Floyd bluntly described P2OG in CounterPunch, saying, “the United States government is planning to use “cover and deception” and secret military operations to provoke murderous terrorist attacks on innocent people. Let’s say it again: Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and the other members of the unelected regime in Washington plan to deliberately foment the murder of innocent people–your family, your friends, your lovers, you–in order to further their geopolitical ambitions.”[4]
“The Troubles” with Iraq
On February 5, 2007, the Telegraph reported that, “Deep inside the heart of the “Green Zone” [in Iraq], the heavily fortified administrative compound in Baghdad, lies one of the most carefully guarded secrets of the war in Iraq. It is a cell from a small and anonymous British Army unit that goes by the deliberately meaningless name of the Joint Support Group (JSG).” The members of the JSG “are trained to turn hardened terrorists into coalition spies using methods developed on the mean streets of Ulster during the Troubles, when the Army managed to infiltrate the IRA at almost every level. Since war broke out in Iraq in 2003, they have been responsible for running dozens of Iraqi double agents.” They have been “[w]orking alongside the Special Air Service [SAS] and the American Delta Force as part of the Baghdad-based counter-terrorist unit known as Task Force Black.”"
“Weeks after the initial incident involving the British SAS soldiers in Basra, in October of 2005, it was reported that Americans were “captured in the act of setting off a car bomb in Baghdad,” as, “A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday. … Residents of western Baghdad’s al-Ghazaliyah district [said] the people had apprehended the Americans as they left their Caprice car near a residential neighborhood in al-Ghazaliyah on Tuesday afternoon. Local people found they looked suspicious so they detained the men before they could get away. That was when they discovered that they were Americans and called the … police.” However, “the Iraq police arrived at approximately the same time as allied military forces – and the two men were removed from Iraq custody and whisked away before any questioning could take place.”[16] ”
“It was reported that in May of 2005, an Iraqi man was arrested after witnessing a car bombing that took place in front of his home, as it was said he shot an Iraqi National Guardsman. However, “People from the area claim that the man was taken away not because he shot anyone, but because he knew too much about the bomb. Rumor has it that he saw an American patrol passing through the area and pausing at the bomb site minutes before the explosion. Soon after they drove away, the bomb went off and chaos ensued. He ran out of his house screaming to the neighbors and bystanders that the Americans had either planted the bomb or seen the bomb and done nothing about it. He was promptly taken away.” ”
And so on and so forth ….
Dear Eleonora,
Please stick to the topic raised by Italian politician Daniela Santanche in this article, and addressed in my post #173 above:
In terms of human sexuality, was Muhammed
a) simply a “helpful†red-blooded lady lovin’ ‘holy prophet’ who we should admire and emulate, or
b) just a bloodthirsty mysogonistic promiscuous pervert?
Best regards,
~The Infidel Alliance
About Mohamed and women: this is a dangerous topic. Everybody knows facts as they were graphically described in Hadith, but uttering them may end up in death of hundreds. Do you remember “Miss Nigeria” contest?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2501893.stm
Eleonora will have no problem with this. It was a “Christian conspiracy” that prayerful Muslims went straight from their Mosques to kill and destroy everybody suspected to be a Christian (a major offense indeed).
About Mohamed and Aisha: you must judge it in the context of the times. To be fair, you should remember that at the times of Mohamed the average lifespan was ~30 years, or so. Teenage mothers were common. First menstruation was a sign of maturity. It is hard to judge by the current standards. Is this is a model to follow at all times?. Clearly, not. I have serious problems with the message of the Prophet to be followed at all times. In the Koran it states that Prophet could marry as many women as he liked (including his daughter-in-law). But other Muslims cannot do that, at least not at the same time. I am wondering why those Middle Eastern harems were filled with hundreds of women. Probably they were slaves brought from conquered lands. I was once buying “explaining away” such inconvenient truths. However, the more I read the more uncomfortable I became. I walked the path opposite to Eleonora. The people like Eleonora remaind me that once you become a convert and you don’t want to follow beautiful religious figures such as Christ, you have nowhere to turn. Logic doesn’t apply anymore. (S)he is struggling for self-assurance. I would leave it at that.
>Is it truly beyond your ability to comprehend that the defense of one’s home land has nothing to do >with religion?
The above violence in Nigeria have nothing to do with the defense of homeland. Does it have anything to do with Islam?. Can you comprehend that?
Iraq was a botched war. I don’t condone any of this. Killing innocents is a real crime and nobody who believes that he goes to hell for that will blow himself up in the crowd of civilians. You conveniently leave Islam out of it and bring Christianity in the opposite role. However, show me non-Muslims blowing themselves up in the middle of civilian crowd. How about Saddam before the invasion, when he murdered savagely using poison gas against women and children? He was a religious man. I saw him reciting shahada seconds before his death.
Dear Omar,
Very good post.
The issue of harems and slavery is another issue that is related to this issue of Muhammeds sexual morality, as he set the standard for Islam and all Muslims.
Like the bombing sites in Bali, I have also been to the Islamic slave trading mecca of Zanzibar. America and the west takes a lot of heat, rightfully so, for slavery, but Islam’s gruesome slave trade was even worse.
Not only were women captured as sex slaves, but boys and men too – eunichs who had their testicals cut off.
Eleonora is indeed struggling. She is clearly an intelligent woman, but when any intelligent person tries to rationalize the many pathologies afllicting Islam, and try to reconcile them with modern values, they always hit a brick wall of the truth and it hurts.
Best regards,
~The Infidel Alliance
To Omar – yr comment #181 and 182
I take note of the fact that you’re unable or unwilling to address any of my points in 175, 176, 177, 179 – instead you re-route the issue again. It’s quite one sided this game, don’t you think? But it doesn’t come as a surprise to me as simply no normal person can answer them comprehensibly – and the “AGIPROP†is not really interested in dialogue but rather in a platform to spit propaganda and hate.
It is repulsive what the “Western Alliance†is doing to the world and you’re obviously part of it as you don’t distance yourself. You rather resort to the old tactic of jumping left, right and center and bringing in some “breaking news†every now and then. But just for the sake of “constructive dialogue”: read the article you posted about the Miss World contest – it’s all there. What the West does since ever (agitate, provocate and then jump out of the ambush to “defend†some “higher values” !!!) is one more time nicely demonstraetd.
Omar, unfortunately I do comprehend – and with me an increasing number of people – how the AGIPROP works and how the bad guys on one side feed the stupid and brainless guys on the other side (they may call it a computer glitch in the Nigeria case, hahaha!) and then sit back, watch and reap the fruits for the next AGIPROP step. Only gullible people still buy into this sharade. Unfortunately, the fanatics (in this case the Muslims) can not see how much they serve the interests of the Western-Zionist Alliance. It confirms my personal opinion: all fanatics on all sides are lunatics and we normal people pay the price.
I may go back in history just a few decades and remind you of the Cuban debacle which we all know today – thanks to the de-classified documents – how it was “produced†by America. The same applies to the “babies in the Kuwait incubatorsâ€. The same applies to the cartoons and to so many other at the face of it “unexplicable†events around the globe. Recommendation: give it up it’s too much see through.
“I saw him (Saddam Hussein) reciting shahada seconds before his death.†I didn’t know that you where there … millions of people saw it on TV. And what excactly do you think this proves? Hitler is said to have prayed before he killed himself – was he a Muslim? Countless ordinary serial killers are known to have prayed before they got executed in the US – Muslims too? Or let’s go to the present: Bush prayed every day and before every attack to God – is he a Muslim too? If so that would explain the hundreds of thousands of civilian victims in the name of Christian America – which is by your thinking nothing but a nation of camouflaged Muslim fanatics (?). The Israeli soldiers go with the blessings of the fanatic Rabbis and they pray for as many dead “Palis” as possible – fanatic Muslims too? Oh – I forgot that’s all not to be compared, I “comprehend”.
“Killing innocents is a real crime …†Too little – too late.
“… and nobody who believes that he goes to hell for that will blow himself up in the crowd of civilians.†… “However, show me non-Muslims blowing themselves up in the middle of civilian crowd.â€
Again: what’s the difference between a human bomb in a crowd of civilians and a bomb dropped from high above (the most cowardly way I know) unto civilians because the “bomb dropping state†wants to either teach the civilian population a lesson or wants to “execute†one terrorist?
Let me emphasize this: they want to kill with a 1 ton bomb ONE person in the middle of a crowd of innocent civilians … do you get this? They are bombarding people on the South Lebanon Highway after they told them it is safe to use it … do you get this? They drop White phosphorus on densly populated areas inhabited by innocent civilians … do you get this? They drop DU Amunition indiscriminately onto civilians darn well knowing what a genetic time bomb this is … do you understand what I am saying?
All of them accept to kill innocent bystanders. All of them accept to blow innocent civilians – men, women, children and babies – to smithereens. ALL of them are nothing but plain murderers and war criminals where a state’s military machinerie is involved. You can re-dress and re-colour it the way you see fit it doesn’t help you out of the ditch = Den Haag is the only legal and justice serving answer.
The non-Muslims don’t blow themselves up in a crowd you’re right, except the Tamil Tigers. They’re all cowards who like to wreck havoc but who are first concerned about their own safety. See the IRA, the ETA, the Sendero Luminoso, the CIA, the Zionist Stern Gang, the Israeli Mossad, the Mafia = all Muslims?!
To Omar – yr comment #181 and 182
Why don’t you simply read the link I posted with respect to the Car Bombs? But if you prefer it I can spoon feed you some incidents:
“On Friday, July 21st, IRA Volunteers left 20 car bombs or concealed charges on the periphery of the now-gated city center, with detonations timed to follow one another at approximately five-minute intervals. The first car bomb exploded in front of the Ulster Bank in north Belfast and blew both legs off a Catholic passerby; successive explosions damaged two railroad stations, the Ulster bus depot on Oxford Street, various railway junctions, and a mixed Catholic-Protestant residential area on Cavehill Road. “At the height of the bombing, the center of Belfast resembled a city under artillery fire; clouds of suffocating smoke enveloped buildings as one explosion followed another, almost drowning out the hysterical screams of panicked shoppers.”
“The same day, a bloody, bungled car bomb attack on the village of Claudy in County Londonderry killed 8 people. (Protestant Loyalist paramilitary groups — who never bothered with warnings and deliberately targeted civilians on the other side — would claim Bloody Friday and Claudy as sanctions for their triple car bomb attack on Dublin during afternoon rush hour on May 17, 1974 which left 33 dead, the highest one-day toll in the course of the “Troubles.”)â€
“…CIA Director William Casey were left thirsting for revenge against Hezbollah. “Finally in 1985,” according to the Washington Post’s Bob Woodward in Veil, his book on Casey’s career, “he worked out with the Saudis a plan to use a car bomb to kill [Hezbollah leader] Sheikh Fadlallah…†… “It was Casey on his own, saying, ‘I’m going to solve the big problem by essentially getting tougher or as tough as the terrorists in using their weapon — the car bomb.’ … “a large car bomb was detonated about 50 yards from Sheikh Fadlallah’s house in Bir El-Abed, a crowded Shiite neighborhood in southern Beirut. The sheikh wasn’t harmed, but 80 innocent neighbors and passersby were killed and 200 wounded.â€
“…Despite the Fadlallah fiasco, Casey remained an enthusiast for using urban terrorism to advance American goals, especially against the Soviets and their allies in Afghanistan…â€
“…U.S. Special Forces experts would now provide high-tech explosives and teach state-of-the-art sabotage techniques, including the fabrication of ANFO (ammonium nitrate-fuel oil) car bombs,…â€
“…Meanwhile, “by the late 1980s, the ISI had effectively eliminated all the secular, leftist, and royalist political parties that had first formed when Afghan refugees fled communist rule.” As a result, most of the billions of dollars that the Saudis and Washington pumped into Afghanistan ended up in the hands of radical Islamist groups sponsored by the ISI. They were also the chief recipients of huge quantities of CIA-supplied plastic explosives as well as thousands of advanced E-cell delay detonators.â€
PLEASE TAKE NOTE, Omar: “…had effectively eliminated all the secular, leftist, and royalist political parties that had first formed when Afghan refugees fled communist rule…” The ISI being the contractor to the CIA = America. They eliminated all except the fundamentalists … any idea as to why??????
“Beginning in April 1992, for example, the occult Maoists of Sendero Luminoso came down from Peru’s altiplano to spread terror throughout the cities of Lima and Callao with increasingly more powerful coche-bombas. “Large supplies of explosives,” the magazine Caretas pointed out, are “freely available in a mining nation,” and the senderistas were generous in their gifts of dynamite: bombing television stations and various foreign embassies as well as a dozen police stations and military camps. Their campaign eerily recapitulated the car bomb’s phylogeny as it progressed from modest detonations to a more powerful attack on the American embassy, then to Bloody-Friday-type public massacres using 16 vehicles at a time. The climax (and Sendero’s chief contribution to the genre) was an attempt to blow up an entire neighborhood of “class enemies”: a huge ANFO explosion in the elite Miraflores district on the evening of July 16 that killed 22, wounded 120, and destroyed or damaged 183 homes, 400 businesses and 63 parked cars.â€
“Between their (Tamil Tigers) first such operation in 1987 and 2000, they were responsible for twice as many suicide attacks of all kinds as Hezbollah and Hamas combined. Although they have integrated car bombs into regular military tactics (for example, using kamikazes in trucks to open attacks on Sri Lankan army camps), their obsession and “most prized theater of operation” in their struggle for Tamil independence has been the Sri Lankan capital, Colombo, which they first car-bombed in 1987 in a grisly attack on the main bus terminal, burning scores of passengers to death inside crowded buses.â€
“In January 1996, a Black Tiger — as the suicide elite are called — drove a truck containing 440 pounds of military high explosives into the front of the Central Bank Building, resulting in nearly 1,400 casualties. Twenty months later in October 1997 in a more complex operation, the Tigers attacked the twin towers of the Colombo World Trade Center. They managed to maneuver through barricades and set off a car bomb in front of the Center, then battled the police with automatics and grenades. The following March, a suicide mini-bus with shrapnel-filled bombs affixed to its sideboards was detonated outside the main train station in the midst of a huge traffic jam. The 38 dead included a dozen children in a school bus.â€
The acts of the Zionist since the early 1930 up until today would fill another forum.
Yes, I guess you’re right – one can comfortably say that non-Mulsims don’t blow themselves up in a crowded place …
One of the many reasons why I have become highly suspicious when I hear certain “facts”:
“Maliki Stalls US Plan to Frame Iran”
http://www.antiwar.com/porter/?articleid=12841
“… the George W. Bush administration’s plan to create a new crescendo of accusations against Iran for allegedly smuggling arms to Shiite militias in Iraq encountered not just one but two setbacks.
The government of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki refused to endorse US charges of Iranian involvement in arms smuggling to the Mahdi Army, and a plan to show off a huge collection of Iranian arms captured in and around Karbala had to be called off after it was discovered that none of the arms were of Iranian origin.
The news media’s failure to report that the arms captured from Shiite militiamen in Karbala did not include a single Iranian weapon shielded the US military from a much bigger blow to its anti-Iran strategy.
The Bush administration and top Iraq commander Gen. David Petraeus had plotted a sequence of events that would build domestic US political support for a possible strike against Iran over its “meddling” in Iraq and especially its alleged export of arms to Shiite militias.
The plan was keyed to a briefing document to be prepared by Petraeus on the alleged Iranian role in arming and training Shiite militias that would be surfaced publicly after the al-Maliki government had endorsed it and it used to accuse Iran publicly.”
That’s when AGIPROP goes wrong – and how many of these “incidents” work out fine, go unnoticed and undiscovered? And who takes the blame at the end?
Today a Muslim is already a terrorist if he simply asks: “Good Morning, how are you?”
These articles of the December issue of Le Monde Diplomatique
http://mondediplo.com/2009/12/02drones
“Drones command the skies”
and
http://mondediplo.com/2009/12/03dronesmarket
“US secures drones market”
give us another idea of how “humane” the killings of civilian is going to be handled by non-Muslims in the future.
Mark the 12th of December
Alert from Avaaz.org (http://www.avaaz.org/en/real_deal_hosts/?cl=381380794&v=4674)
“Over the next two weeks, our leaders will negotiate the most important agreement of our time – one that must stop a climate catastrophe.
But they will only aim as high as we demand. That’s why on the weekend of December 12th we will gather at thousands of climate vigils in every corner of the planet to send a clear message: The World Wants a Real Deal!
Over 1500 events are already registered across the world, but we are just getting started. Click on your country below to see details of events near you. If there isn’t one in your area, why not register one yourself? Hosting is easy – click here to find out more.”
For those in Egypt – go to the above link and hopefully participate.
For those outside Egypt – why don’t you go to http://www.avaaz.org/en/real_deal_hosts/?cl=381380794&v=4674, scroll down and see where it’s happening in your country.
Thanks for participating, Eleonora
>Today a Muslim is already a terrorist if he simply asks: “Good Morning, how are you?â€
I am not sure that in Afghanistan or Iraq, civilians are afraid of American suicidal bombers (or any bombers on this matter). Muslim bombers are religiously motivated. Military action is a cleaning process. Don’t forget that before Taliban was unseated in Afghaninstan, there were millions of civilians refugees in Pakistan.
The logic of terror is to kill hundreds and scare millions (and, eventually “submit” them). Voting in Switzerland shows that millions are already scared. They are scared by Koranic verses like this: “Strike terror into God’s enemies, and your enemies” (Koran 8.60). People were quite neutral or positive towards Islam before Muslims arrived in Europe in large numbers and implemented some of their convictions leaving a string of bodies in the process. Nobody would bother to fight in Iraq or Afghanistan and waste money on these underdeveloped tribal societies, if people were not scared of the criminal intent and actions executed from other countries, particularly from Afghanistan. Massive killings in Nigeria were ignored because they always could have been explained away as “marginal”. No more. Claiming that this is in revenge for Israel or whatever, is an insult to those thousands of innocents murdered.
I don’t care to discuss your “explanations”. You wanted a prove that Mohamed executed entire tribe. When I brought a quote, you started spinning. I am bored. Salam aleykum!
To Omar – yr comment #189
You can’t help it, can you? You’ve got the task assigned: no matter what one says and more importantly proves as an irrefutable fact … the earth has to be flat!
People of your (singular and plural) habitus are never interested in the other side nor their explanations or reasons – you’re only interested in “how can I use them to further my goals and ultimately achieve them”.
As for my country (Switzerland) leave it out of the equation – I know pretty well what was going on there and is still in the process as I’ve witnessed how some parties started brainwashing people. It always works with the same tricks from AGIPROP as we see so vividly demonstrated here in the forum too.
To sum it up in Uri Avnery’s words (founder of Gush Shalom): “Violence is the symptom – occupation is the disease”. This succinct statement by Uri with respect to Israel applies to the world:
VIOLENCE IS THE SYMPTOM – OPPRESSION IS THE DISEASE
As long as the oppression exists violence will continue no matter how you try to explain it away. It’s there to stay (until oppression ends and some justice is done) and hopefully to remind you and the likes every day WHY it is there. Just look in the mirror and you have the answer. In case you forgot: We ALL have the same right to live in dignity, self-determination, prosperity and freedom without fear of being attacked and bombarded because of resources, land and/or water under the disguise or fighting “religious terrorism”.
But let me address your posting in order to get the other side nonetheless to be heard again. Although here too – this is the last thing you want because someone might stop, compare and start thinking by his/her own.
“I am not sure that in Afghanistan or Iraq, civilians are afraid of American suicidal bombers (or any bombers on this matter).”
This statement of yours is adding insult to injury to the millions of civilians who have either been driven out of their homes and homeland or have been maimed and killed by your heroic armies. Do you reckon that it’s fun and helps to relax the atmosphere at a wedding party if one never knows whether or not one gets blown to pieces by some US or “allied” bombs? I guess if one has a sick mind…
And yes the same goes for people who sit in a coffee shop enjoying their time. Or in a bus. Or in a market place. But in today’s media and discussions, only the ones in the coffee shop get full attention. The other ones (if they are Arabs and/or Muslims) are cut out of the equation and totally ignored.
“Claiming that this is in revenge for Israel …” that can be best answered with statements from a transcript of a discussion:
“…Desperate living conditions, severe cutbacks in funding as a “punishment” for democratically electing the “wrong” leader, limited or no access to medical facilities, almost no access to get to the job you have that is if you have one, the humiliation of the checkpoints and the wall, ambulances deliberately detained for hours and hours, crops and fields destroyed, children being shot by Israeli soldiers on their way to school, Palestinian homes being invaded and trashed by Israeli soldiers at gunpoint, supply trucks only permitted to traverse the checkpoints for an extremely limited number of hours (both directions) and both export and import foods spoil on waiting trucks as a result, families running out of food and water, and the list goes on. Under those totally hopeless and grossly unjust conditions…”
“… Actually when you go into some one else’s home and wreck havoc and blow up their hopes and livelihood you go beyond any point that they can understand your selfishness. The question they ask is “With all that they have, how come they destroy our life to take the meager we have? How can a person be so selfish?”. You might think they are asking this and that….but all they ask is justice…. to leave them alone …… leave what is theirs theirs. Mind your own backyard and leave them to mind theirs. They don’t have the will or the power to mess with your life. You know that very well…..But the way it is, as you can see from the case of Iraq, whatever they do or they don’t do, war is their lot…you go and bomb them with this or that excuse.
These souls are not psychopaths, violent nor ruthless. They are trying to bring changes in a political system that has ruthlessly crushed all other non violent struggles of their fore fathers.
That funds are being cut off to the Palestinian government – the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Palestinian government – by governments who complain that Hamas has not renounced the use of terror and violence…while these same governments continue to support, encourage and perpetrate terror and violence upon others.
So the people of Palestine get to suffer further. As usual. For something that a vast majority of them have never done.â€
…
“… It’s just another example of what has gone on in places like South America – democracy tries to break out, due to the hard work of the down-trodden locals, but the US decides that it’s the “wrong sort of democracy”, and so crushes the country until there’s little left except torture chambers and blood stains.
And so you continue to punish people in these countries, like Palestine, then wonder why they get so angry and start fighting back.
…
“… It is well written history on the subject, when people are pushed into a corner with no other way of retaliation. The number of people slaughtered by 500 and 1000 lb bombs well exceeds the number of people killed by suicide bombers but we never hear about it. The carnage is even worse and mind numbing when cluster bombs are used to support ground troops. To see what cluster bombs do to human flesh is to understand why they are illegal; however they have been widely used from Belgrade to Beirut to Gaza to Baghdad to Kabul. Unexploded cluster bomblets are played with by children! It’s very sick.
I could explain the function of white phosphorus and how it works when combined with moisture on the skin, beneath clothes or in one’s mouth but it requires a little knowledge of chemistry and an understanding on how to make acids and bases.”
So far the different statements
To Omar
VIOLENCE IS THE SYMPTOM – OPPRESSION IS THE DISEASE
Summing-up past discussions:
If you understand why someone does something, you have a better chance of stopping it. E.g. if teenagers are going on a shooting rampage like recently in a German school or often seen in America, you find out why, so you can prevent another catastrophe. There are countless studies and prevention teams at work and everything is done to avoid a repeat.
If everyone who uses a particular drug goes into convulsions, you don’t say “We don’t care why, we’ll just treat the convulsions” – you find out it’s the drug and you pull it off the shelves. Prevention of murder is more important than punishment after the event, don’t you think so too?
Saying “…let’s stop pretending that suicide bombers don’t claim to take much of their inspiration from a religion that so happens to be Islam”, is just plain wrong.
For one thing, the most prolific suicide bombers are the Tamil Tigers, or Liberation Tigers of Tamil Elam (LTTE). They’re Hindu. Some of the Palestinian suicide bombers have been Christian (a fact never mentioned).
Suicide bombers don’t claim to take much of their inspiration from any religion. If you’d read or listen to what the suicide bombers themselves have had to say, religion is almost never mentioned. They close their statements with a religious line but they are not inspired by it. That’s just the spin your government (or any other “organization”) puts on it to avoid the real reason.
The suicide part is, in one sense, immaterial. If you go out to the store, and come home to find your house destroyed and your family members all dead, does it really matter to you whether the bomb was strapped on a human, delivered in a parcel, or dropped from a plane? No, it doesn’t. A bomb is a bomb: they all kill innocent people.
The book by Robert Pape “Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism†(The book’s conclusions are based on data from 315 suicide terrorism campaigns around the world from 1980 through 2003 and 462 individual suicide terrorists.) and as far as I know all research in this area all around the world, states quite clearly that most, if not all, suicide bombers do it because they think they’re at war or they see overwhelming injustice. They see their families and friends die and decide to do something about it.
Dr. Ariel Merari (Psychologist Tel Aviv University) has conducted a comprehensive study of individuals who committed acts of suicide terrorism with respect to the region. He profiled more than 50 suicide bombers (Hezbollah, Amal, secular pro-Syrian organizations in Lebanon, as well as Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad in Israel). He concluded that “there is no single psychological or demographic profile of suicide terrorists … and … powerful motives reinforce tendencies toward martyrdom, including patriotism, hatred of the enemy, and a profound sense of victimization.†Strange that he did NOT conclude that Islam is the reason…
In short: If your family were killed, would you want to kill those who did it? Or would you say to yourself “Well, whoever did it must have had a pretty good reason, so it must have been my family’s fault”? No. You wouldn’t.
A statement often heard that “there is nothing progressive about murder, nor religious hatred”, is quite correct. But then again does the means of murder matter? Is a murder more unjust because the bomb is strapped on a human, or is any murder unjust? All bombs, all bombs, kill innocent civilians. Any bombing is murder never mind the reasons.
Much of the reading I’ve done on this issue has suggested that people who strap bombs on themselves do so because it’s their only means to kill those they perceive as the enemy. They, the suicide bombers or their families, have stated this time and again. Islam rarely rates a mention. If they had access to a large air force to allow them the luxury of aerial bombardment, I suspect they’d prefer to do that and save themselves. But they don’t have that luxury. So they choose the only means of delivering mass murder that they have. It doesn’t make the murder any different, although human bombs kill far fewer people, far fewer!!, than bombs falling out of planes. It’s called asymmetrical warfare, which is what happens when one side has a huge slaughtering capability and the other side doesn’t.
Seriously, too many people continue to believe these myths, and it makes it so much harder to try to stop the killing. When you’ve got people ON ALL SIDES so full of hate and violence that they all keep killing innocent people, how do you get it to stop?
Omar, I know you’d never be interested in the other side’s view there is a slim chance that it might disturb your pre-conditioned mind. But read it anyway.
Shalom
For info on the book by Robert Pape go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_to_Win:_The_Strategic_Logic_of_Suicide_TerrorismThere you find quite an extensive write-up about one of the best books I have come across on this subject.
The Conclusion states on Wikipedia:
Ch. 12: A New Strategy for Victory
Though “we†cannot leave the Middle East altogether, Pape asserts, a “strategy for victory†is available (237-38). U.S. should define victory as the separate objectives of “defeating the current pool of terrorists†and preventing a new generation from arising (238-39). He rejects Frum-Perle view that the root of the problem is in Islam (241-44). “Rather, the taproot is American military policy†(244). The notion that Islamic fundamentalism is bent on world domination is “pure fantasy†(244-45). An attempt by the West to force Muslim societies to transform “is likely to dramatically increase the threat we face†(245). He calls for a policy of “‘off-shore’ balancingâ€: establishing local alliances while maintaining the capacity for rapid deployment of military forces (247-50).
For “Omar”
In concluding this discussion with you I would like to share a little story with you which I have come across some years ago. You and I will never see eye to eye on the fact that violence (you call it terrorism – I call it freedom fight) is the only logical consequence of oppression. Nobody wakes up one morning and decides out of the blue to go and kill some people. Unless he is a pathological case like that one American serial killer who stated that “I feel like God when I take someone’s life. It’s me who decides if he can live or dye.â€
The story goes as follows and applies to all of mankind irrespective of their religion or belief:
One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, ‘My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all.
One is Evil. – It is anger, hate, envy, jealousy, greed, oppression, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, hypocrisy, and contempt.
The other is Good. – It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, fairness, justice, compassion and faith.
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather:
‘Which wolf wins?’
The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.’
It’s our decision Omar – Shalom and Salam and Peace
“… It is well written history on the subject, when people are pushed into a corner with no other way of retaliation. The number of people slaughtered by 500 and 1000 lb bombs well exceeds the number of people killed by suicide bombers but we never hear about it.”
You anger me to the extreme: who those criminals retaliate against in mosques? At train station? How can you be so terribly brainwashed!!!. Retaliation brings more violence (you might have missed that by not reading Bible.
Here is the response from the Nobel Peace Prize winner this year. It is impossible to negotiate with fanatic killers. There is such thing as just war.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/30448
I don’t condone what is happening in the Middle East. But why do Palestinians believe that Israel has no right to exist? Why do Arabs still consider Spain as their territory? Why Indonesians destroyed Eeast Timor only because they rejected Islam and embraced Christianity? Who is murdering in Mindanao? Nigeria? You call it “justified”? I am not surprised that people voted what they voted for in my Switzerland. I believe that you are dangerously deranged and people who justify terror in no way fit to European civilization built on Christianity.
Dear Eleanora & Omar,
Please….return to the topic of this artice. If you want to debate war & peace, religious differences, and the “Great Satan” evil hegemonic America, I’d like to join in, but not here.
This article is about Muhammed’s sexual morality, and whether his sexual examples as a ‘holy phophet’ set a universal standard of higher human morality for Muslims & non-Muslims alike to follow.
So:
1) Muhammed was the founder & ‘holy prophet’ of Islam and is considered ‘the perfect man’.
2) Is the sex life of Muhammed, his personal examples, his teachings and mandates for his followers representative of what should constitute a ‘normal Muslim’?
3) The ugly issue of pedophilia aside, is having 11 – 13 wives a good example of sexual morality or of primitive animal instinct, as Muhammed did?
4) Is there EVER justification for capturing or kidknapping women and forcing them into sexual slavery, as Muhammed did?
5) Is there EVER justification for taking women captured or kidnapped and ‘giving’ them to your followers for sexual slavery (ie: sex slavery trafficking) as Muhammed did?
6) How does one define sexual deviancy or sexual perversion?
7) Did Muhammed’s sexual examples enlighten men, or trap them in a state of base animal sexual instinct and lust?
9) Does subjugating women as sex slaves, as Muhammed did, diminish womens dignity as human beings?
10) Should women be reqiured to submit to the immediate sexual demands of their owners whenever, wherever and however as referenced in Qur’an (2:223) – “Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will…”
I look forward to your thoughtful and well considered replies,
Best regards,
~ The Infidel Alliance
First of all the hadiths were compiled teo centuries after Muhammad and the story of Aisha and her age is a Talmudic refernce and not Muhammad. Many enemies of Islam fabricated hadiths. There is no mention of Aisha in the Quran.
Many here take their Islam from Sunni/Shia sources which was manufactured by the Arabs of Mecca. It has nothing to do with Islam. Islam is the Quran.
The Quran gives complete freedom. Sunnism is a later invention. Most Western historians do not consider hadiths as reliable and believe it is a later invention anyways. The people who quote hadiths simply quote hadiths they see as attacking Muhammad’s character. However even in Aisha’s age there are different accounts in the hadiths with some hadith placing her age at 18 or 16 and some place her age at 13.
So this attempt will ultimately fail since the Quran is the only authority to speak for Islam.
WHAT IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ISLAM AND TODAY’S PRACTICES?
In comparing the teachings of Islam as derived from the Book of God to the practices taught and enforced by the popular Sunni and Shia faiths (1.2 Bn followers), we find that the list is quite extensive, with some of the highlights as follows:
In Islam, the requirement to be a Muslim is to simply accept and live according to the �Straight Path� (6:151-153), Vs. the Sunni or Shia 5-pillars which come from unauthorized books�
In Islam, abolishing Slavery is taught to be an act of righteousness (90:12-13), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which encourages slavery under war�
In Islam, women are never forbidden from praying or fasting during Menstruation (2:222), nor is there a specific dress code (i.e. the Headscarf) imposed on them beyond modesty, Vs. the Sunni and Shia which teach the undermining of women and forcing them to cover their hair and avoid praying or fasting at certain times…
In Islam, a man or women may leave a Will, after settlement of debt (4:12), Vs. Sunnis who refuse to accept wills if there are any direct descendants…
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man�s guardianship (4:3), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut�a)…
In Islam, Divorce is enforceable only after a two-phase period, and it may be made nullified if the couple reconcile before the end of this period (65:1, 65:4), Vs. Sunni teachings that destroy families by allowing a divorce to occur on the spot with no waiting period and no nullification…
In Islam, Thieves do not have their hands cut-off, but are made to work until they return that which is stolen (12:76), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings which brutally amputate the hands causing disability…
In Islam, no one is allowed to be killed or Stoned for adultery (24:2), Vs. Sunni and Shia laws of stoning married adulterers to death…
In Islam, absolute Freedom of Faith is allowed (2:256, 10:99; 18:29; 88:21-22), Vs. Sunni and Shia requiring apostates to be killed and rejecting the practice of other faiths…
In Islam, people are acknowledged as being diverse and each is to be respected for his/her level of spiritual growth. A Submitter �Muslim� must work to attain the status of Faithful �Mumin� (49:14), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings that all followers of their religion must think, act, and even look the same (cult syndrome)…
In Islam, War can only be declared in cases of self-defence – no offensives (2:190), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings allowing raids and attacks on any people who are considered non-Muslim by their standards…
In Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (22:27-28), Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)…
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (17:12, 9:36), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time�
In Islam, males and females are not required to be Circumcised (32:7), Vs. Sunni and Shia teachings requiring all males to be circumcised and females in some cases…
In Islam, music, statues, gold and silk are all Lawful(7:32-33, 16:116), Vs. Sunni beliefs forbidding silk & gold for men, and forbidding music & statues for all…
In Islam, rule of Government is under the constitution of the Qur’an through consultation and free-speech (5:48, 42:38). Vs. Sunni teachings which allow the rise of dictators or monarchs, and Shia teachings which uphold self-appointed religious leaders based on genealogy.
The Talmud was attacked in the Quran. The Quran confirmed the Torah. It confirmed the Gospel but attacked the trinity, a theology introduced in the 3rd century in the council of Nicea. It has no basis in the Gospel whatsoever.
Jesus attacked the Pharisees and their Talmud also.
Real Islam is only Quran. And Quran is freedom and peace:
http://iran.whyweprotest.net/off-topic/1565-collapse-sunni-shia-koranist-rise.html
Now thats Islam. Sunnism is a political movement. Take care all!
Dear Infidel Alliance,
I agree that sexual life of the Prophet is not to my taste. But if Eleonora is indeed a woman, as she claims, she apparently likes it. Even in the decadent European civilization certain sexual customs of Muslims (like polygamy) are difficult to swallow. In America there is serious outrage at Tiger Woods who collected a whole harem of women. I cannot understand women who subscribe to sexual slavery of this kind.
What I am more alarmed about are statements like this:
>You and I will never see eye to eye on the fact that violence (you call it >terrorism – I call it >freedom fight) is the only logical consequence of >oppression.
These almost exactly the words of this crackpot Mjr. Nidal Hasan, who murdered 13 young soldiers in America. My local Muslim friends rushed to assure me that he was deranged and he does not represent Islam. Here you have Eleonora who states the opposite. No volumes of preaching on the “Religion of Peace” can undo the clear damage she is doing here. Here logic is: “it all started when he hit me back.” And this goes back to the very heart of her chosen religion.
To Omar – yr comment #193
My dear Omar
“You anger me to the extreme…” – did nobody in the training camp tell you that you should never show your anger? What kind of lousy instructors did you have to put up with? I’m truly sorry for you. Neither should you be calling your adversary names because that’s a sign of you standing on loosing grounds. It always and only happens at the point when one doesn’t have logical and cognitive arguments anymore … which you never had to start with.
Consider this as a PS to my last posting as I view this discussion as closed. You do have the blinders firmly in place and someone has effectively tampered with your brain but don’t worry this is curable. But I worry that hell will freeze over before you and people with your mindset will be able to understand and come to accept that other people do have the same rights.
My little boxer of 4 years has come to understand that he can not kill cats just because they’re of a different race – 5 cats had to dye before he understood that every time he kills one he gets punished by us. Eventually he understood. Do you get the idea?
“Retaliation brings more violence …†Yes I know that one – turn the other cheek. Now let me ask you a simple question coming from a simple minded person like I am: why did and does the US not adhere to this “Christian†principle? … But then the Muslims should … hhhmmm makes kind of sense … question is to whom?
You hang all your arguments on “petty†isolated incidents because you’re afraid of looking at the bigger picture. What are you scared of? Why are you so absolutely unable to look beyond your little world? Are you scared to discover that you’ve been had? Le me tell you a secret: behind your limited horizon there is a whole wide world waiting to be discovered by you. Aren’t you interested?
You don’t expect me to address the charade called “Peace Nobel Prize for Obama†– or do you truly?? Be a Mensch and give me a break. There are no just wars except if your homeland is attacked (e.g. in case you don’t comprehend = what’s heaped onto the rest of the world incl. the Muslims) by America.
Why don’t you – next time we meet in another forum – give me a good explanation as of why the US needs over 800 (!) military bases all over the globe? To protect its homeland? To spread freedom and democracy? Why does the US have to occupy practically every land on earth? I mean we only have some 139 countries altogether. Do you know that the land occupied by US bases is 46,566 square miles? As a comparison: the land area of North Korea is 46,541 square miles.
As another comparison:
The Roman bases at empire’s peak (AD 117) were: 37
The British bases at empire’s peak (1898) were: 36
I guess though that you don’t get the connection with the military bases either.
So be it.
But this one is just too good to let go of it! You suddenly claim to be “Swissâ€
. Then I’m an Inuit… Swiss people never have your mindset irrespective of how much someone plays with our brains. You know the expression “Omar, the tentmaker†… such folks can simply not be Swiss. As we say: “bisch gäng ume e guete Giu aber de isch der abverheit.â€
To Omar – yr comment #195
I just see your referenced comment. Boy – you’re one helluva kind!
“My local Muslim friends [remark: the Nazis always braged about their Jewish friends too] rushed to assure me that he was deranged and he does not represent Islam. Here you have Eleonora who states the opposite.”
I check out of this discussion but please do me one favour: do NOT distort my statements in such an obvious way. Your instructors must have really been lousy – they should be fired. Didn’t they teach you how to do this in a subtle way?
My statement was:
VIOLENCE IS THE SYMPTOM – OPPRESSION IS THE DISEASE
This has NOTHING to do with religion. You know that. Your friend knows that. Everybody who follows this discussion knows that.
So why do yu put yourself in the embarassing situation of being caught lying? Is it truly worth it?
BTW what about the Mormones and their harems? Untouchable, I know …
Switch off your alarms, sleep well and now I’m definitely logging out of this. “Hebed’s guet zäme”
>>Why don’t you – next time we meet in another forum – give me a good >explanation as of why the US needs over 800 (!) military bases all over >the globe?
United States is a superpower stabilizing the world order. Bombing Tripolis by Reagan brought Ghadafi to his senses. Bombing Serbia brought Milosevic to his senses. Bombing Afghanistan, brought Taliban out of power. Bombing Hitler… You got the picture. There are many haters of this successful country which took the main burden upon itself to stabilize the world during the two world wars and thanks to America we have 64-year old Pax Americana. After Sept. 11 America faces a different, more elusive enemy scattered around the world (very cruel and fanatical, killing thousands of innocents every year). This is why they need many bases, most of which are devoted to intelligence operations.
I understand that terrorists are only defending themselves against unspecified “attackers”. Is this why a century after Mohamed Islam “defended” itself in India and Spain? And currently Muslim terrorists “defend” themselves in the streets of Denmark, England or in New York? The problem IS NOT oppression but a total backwardness of Muslim countries which are unable to build adequate economies to give their people meaningful work but instead they direct anger on external “enemies”. Communism did the same. Something is amiss if instead of a productive activity we can see dissemination of anger and aggression.
>BTW what about the Mormones and their harems? Untouchable, I know …
Nobody got killed for criticizing their Prophet.
Dear readers,
Our good friend “Eleonora” refuses to address the central question of this article, whether Muhammed was a perverted sexual deviant or not, because she knows in her heart it is true and Muhammeds sexual proclivities are just too creepy to defend or even discuss.
Instead, she deflects the focus of the article and tries to twist it into a referendum on the evil hegemony of the oppressive West and the Great Satan. Since this is her “last post” I’ll make a few comments on her posts.
She proclaims “VIOLENCE IS THE SYMPTOM – OPPRESSION IS THE DISEASE. This has NOTHING to do with religion.” This may be true with most religions, but it is simply untrue with respect to Islam, because violence is part of the DNA of this’religion’. Violence was practiced by Muhammed, commanded by Allah, codified in the Koran, and exercised by the Ummah wherever the Ummah exist for 1,400 years.
In the early 1800′s, the United States faced their first enemy and engaged in their first war. The enemy was ISLAM. The Islamic governments of North Africa were raiding Americas unarmed merchant vessels, capturing and enslaving the crews, stealing their cargos, and blackmailing the United States for ransom. This wall all done in the name of Islam, with Koranic justification
Some of the United States most brilliant leaders, indeed the founding fathers, had to deal with this Islamic terror. Here’s what they encountered:
In 1786 Thomas Jefferson, then US ambassador to France, and John Adams, then US Ambassador to Britain, met in London with Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja, the Dey’s ambassador to Britain, in an attempt to negotiate a peace treaty based on Congress’ vote of funding to pay ransom. These two future Presidents later reported to Congress the reasons for the Muslims’ hostility towards America, a nation with which they had no previous contacts. They said:
“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman (Muslim) who should be slain in Battle was sure to go to Paradise.â€
This was long before the Great Satan United States ever had a foreign policy, long before they were guilty of exporting hamburgers and Britney Spears, long before they had ANY overseas military bases, and long before they began their routine ‘brutal oppression’ of peoples around the world.
These attacks against the fledgling United States were motivated by Muhammed, inspired by Allah, and commanded in the Koran. It is well known that Thomas Jefferson owned a Koran. Why? Because he was trying to understand the enemy – he was trying to understand Islam.
In a broad sense I agree with Eleonora – that there is a titanic clash of civilizations going on. It is the Buddhist/Hindu/Judeo-Christian free world pitted against the Islamic totalitarianism world. It is Dar al-Islam fighting to force Dar al-Harb into submission.
Freedom or Submission.
That is what it’s really all about. I will not submit.
~ The Infidel Alliance
Excellent post!!! Thank you!
Giving without reserve
It is with reticence that I write this. I do not wish to place myself on the moral high ground, or to sermonise anyone. This chapter tries to show the truth and importance of dreaming of our Holy Prophet Muhammad . These words seek to confirm that ours is a Prophet of Mercy, a Witness, and a Bearer of Good Tidings. It also aims to portray the consequence of da’wÄt in the Masjid al-HarÄm. It is moreover meant as a method of encouragement for our children to some day continue with the Prophetic Tradition of raising an orphan for the sake of AllÄh, The One of Unbounded Grace. So that they may by this means know that there is more to life than just prayer and fasting. And that they should give of themselves unreservedly. That they might through it also, temper their adhkÄr with compassion.
We were asleep at the Mashrabiyya Hotel in Khalid bin WalÄ«d Street in Shubayka, Makkah al-Mukarramah when, by the Mercy of AllÄh, I had the most beautiful dream. I saw myself standing in the holy presence of our Truthful Prophet Muhammad . The appearance of the Holy Messenger of AllÄh matched scriptural records.
Our Prophet was spotlessly dressed in white robes and a white turban. I stared aghast. Our Prophet stood about two metres away and faced me directly. Someone so unimaginably holy, so indescribably handsome, one will not come across. I do not have the words with which to suitably portray this most wonderful man, the Seal of the Prophets .
I reached for my turban, embarrassed for having only a skullcap on my head.
“Leave it,†I said to myself. “You are in the Company of the Prize of creation.â€
Brilliance shone from our Guided Prophet . Our Prophet smiled at me. His smile radiated light. I stood alert, too humbled to speak. I wished that the dream would last forever. The heavenly smile lasted between ten and fifteen minutes, it felt like.
Al-hamdu-lillÄh. I had never considered myself deserving of such an enormous honour. This was a spiritual experience of the first magnitude. “What does that smile mean?†I wondered. “Why is our Heroic Prophet Muhammad so extremely pleased?†I asked myself over and over again. I stared at the House of AllÄh for extended periods, contemplating its meaning.
Deep in thought, I barely noticed the usually persuasive central-African women selling bird-seed as I walked back and forth from the Masjid al-HarÄm. I was hardly aware of the Turkish female who was dealing in steel daggers on the side of the street. Two men earnestly collecting on behalf of Bosnian refugees also failed to draw my attention. I half-heard a Pakistani lad calling out the price of bottled perfume to prospective customers alongside the road. Malaysian girls trading informally with scarves only just caught my eye. Part of the street had been freshly tarred.
“Unless you receive the sort of treatment that a host bestows on a guest, don’t ever think that, because you have performed the ziyÄrah of the BaitullÄh, you’ve been the guest of AllÄh,†my father had once counselled me.
A similar comment from my uncle, Haji Suleiman, I had further recollected. He had said to me: “Die persoon was Makkah toe – vra vir hom wat het hy gekry.†This rendered into English, says: “The person has been to Mecca – ask him what he had received [there].â€
I considered his observation a bit harsh then, but the force of his remark was now bearing home on me. He knew what he was talking about. “’Ammie Haji†had taught the Haj for more than fifty years. For him it had happened very quickly. Aged twenty-five on his first Haj in 1949, Haji Suleiman had landed inside the Holy Ka’aba when someone lifted him head-high and tossed him over the 2.25 metre high threshold of the BaitullÄh. Not just anyone is allowed into the Holy Ka’aba.
“Did you not get hurt?†I inquired further. “No!†he responded excitedly. “I was young and fit, and had landed on my feet,†he continued proudly.
Once over the doorsill, he did not have too far to fall, as the inside floor was 2.2 metres above the ground.
’Ammie Haji performed two cycles of discretionary salawÄt once inside. From then on, he would wonder who had done him the good turn.
A number of Muslims before our time had believed that someone who had been inside the House of AllÄh would not return home. Such was ‘God’s Will’, they had resolved resignedly. ’Ammie Haji chuckled as he recalled years later how the neighbours in Salt River, on learning of the incident, came to commiserate with his mother on his impending death in Mecca.
Every Muslim who had walked on the holy soil had the potential for such an experience, I realised. Such incidents might have been more prevalent than was ordinarily heard of, I thought. I had for a long time suspected that at least some pilgrims who repeatedly visited the Holy Land, apart from drawing from its built-in holiness, did not preclude themselves from offerings of this nature. It would be silly to think that parallels could not be drawn with al-Madinah al-Munawwarah in occurrences of this kind. It would also have been reasonable to expect wondrous incidents of this nature to occur in Jerusalem, as the major Middle Eastern religions agreed on the sanctity of this, the City of the Farthest Mosque. Thinking that this sort of happening was in any way unique to myself, was ludicrous.
Part of my da’wÄt in the Holy Mosque in Mecca, was to ask AllÄh, The One Who Makes Clear to us His signs so that we may be grateful, to Grant to ourselves the opportunity and blessings of raising an orphan for His sake.
Having the money with which to afford to go on Haj has always been its first consideration. There were many people who had performed the Holy Pilgrimage more often than I. With regard to my parting from the Holy City, though, I had received a fascinating send-off.
My wife and I had, over a number of years, tried to adopt a baby by applying at several local agencies, and were given all sorts of excuses which disqualified, and sometimes discouraged us. Reasons given were that we were not married according to South African law, that few babies from local Muslim parents came up for adoption, and the fact that we have children of our own. We were also faced with, what was to my mind, the worse aspect of the South African race laws. These regulations and those administering it, in this case, the social workers, prescribed that a ‘brown’ orphaned child had to be matched with ‘brown’ adoptive parents. A ‘yellow’ baby could only be placed with prospective ‘yellow’ adoptive parents, a ‘white’ orphan could not be raised by ‘black’ adoptive parents, and so on. They played dominoes with human lives. Some social workers were more ready to read the ‘race act’ than others.
In an interview and in response to a question on whether we would mind adopting a child from a ‘lower rung’ of the colour scale, I told them that “a nice green one would do.â€
A jab to my ribs from my wife quickly halted the acid flow down the sides of my mouth. Stirring the ire of our then masters by criticising their political beliefs would not help, she meant. “When the white boss tells a joke, and regardless of its lack of humour – laugh!†she chided me later.
Race inequalities existing at the time ensured that hundreds of black orphans went begging in more ways than one. It virtually excluded us from adopting a child. No orphans that matched our race and blood mix were on offer and they weren’t likely to easily present themselves for adoption. My wife is of Indian (as in “Indian†from India, as opposed to “American†Indian) stock and I am of (well) mixed blood.
On the morning of Wednesday, 1st June 1994, just three days after arriving back home from Haj, we received a telephone call from Melanie Van Emmenes of the Child Welfare Society. She explained that a five-month old girl had come up for adoption. The baby had earlier undergone successful abdominal surgery and she asked whether we would adopt the child. We jumped at the chance.
A rush of adrenaline replaced the after-effects of travel. We were rejuvenated. Capetonians usually visit local pilgrims before departure and also on their arrival back home. We excused ourselves from the few visitors and asked my mother-in-law to host them in our absence. My wife and I immediately went to the Adoption Centre in Eden Road, Claremont. We signed the necessary papers.
Afterwards, we told our children that we were about to receive an addition to the family. We plodded through a maze of red tape in order to legalise the process. (My wife and I had to marry in court because Muslim marriages were not recognised then, believe it or not). A few days later, my wife, brother and I collected the petite infant from a foster-mother in Newfields Estate. I shall never forget the joyous feeling when I first carried the frail waif past the front door. Her name is Makkia. We named her after the great city from which we had just returned.
I shall always be grateful to the people who had assisted us with the adoption. In a letter of recommendation to the social workers, Haji Achmat Lalkhen al-QÄdirÄ« al-Chisti wrote that he could vouch for my decent parents. Sheikh Mogammad Riefaard bin Moegsien Manie al-’Alawi al-QÄdirÄ« al-Chisti had stated as a character reference that I was ‘of sober habits’.
Taking her into our modest home is one of the better things that we have done. Makkia has added a marvellous dimension to our lives. She is part of our life’s-work.
Adoption is a superb act of charity and the most effective form of da’wah. If every able married couple took on an orphan, the world would be a better place. Raising an orphan means giving from the innermost recesses of one’s heart. Adoption springs from the soul of the adoptive parent.
We cry when a child is orphaned. God cries more.
The meaning behind the glowing smile from our Trustworthy Prophet Muhammad had played itself out in the most delightful way. My dream shows our Prophet’s level of awareness and highlights his profound love for orphans and how kindly he looks on raising an orphan. It demonstrates that raising an orphan is an immensity before God. In our Prophet we have a beautiful pattern of conduct. Our Affectionate Prophet Muhammad , also, had raised a destitute child. Our Divinely-inspired Prophet is the first of the God-fearing. No person is better than him. He had scaled the peak of human tenderness. Our Prophet Muhammad is the leader of the prophets. He is without sin. Our Faultless Prophet is the foremost of those who submit to the Will of AllÄh. An exemplar to those who worship God, our Kind-hearted Prophet Muhammad is the beacon of the pious. Religion is a feature that has encompassed all cultures throughout history. He had brought a religion of kindness and peaceful coexistence. Like a lamp that spreads light, the Messenger of AllÄh invites to the Grace of AllÄh by His leave. He is an inspiration to those who are thankful to God and the leader of those who remember AllÄh . How should I express gratitude to the Holy Messenger of AllÄh for his kind intervention? I am unworthy of untying the thongs of our Prophet’s sandals.
From the SahÄ«h al-BukhÄri, Volume 7, HadÄ«th Number 224, translated from Arabic:
Narrated Sahl:
AllÄh’s Apostle said, “I and the one who looks after an orphan will be like this in Paradise,†showing his middle and index fingers and separating them.
From the SahÄ«h al-BukhÄri, ‘the Good Manners’ (Al-Adab), Volume 8, Book 73, HadÄ«th Number 34, translated from Arabic:
Narrated Sahl bin Sa’d: The Prophet said, “I and the person who looks after an orphan and provides for him, will be in Paradise like this,” putting his index and middle fingers together.
From the Sahīh al-Muslim, Chapter 3: ‘Benevolent Treatment to the Widows, Orphans and the Poor’, Book 42, Hadīth Number 7108, translated from Arabic:
AbÅ« Huraira reported that AllÄh’s Messenger said, “One who looks after the orphan whether he is his relative or not, I and he will be together in Paradise like this,” and Malik (explained it) with the gesture by drawing his index finger and middle finger close together.
From the Muwatta of Imam MÄlik ibn Anas, the section called: ‘The Sunnah on Hair’, Book 51, HadÄ«th Number 51.1.5, translated from Arabic:
Yahya related to me from Malik that Safwan ibn Sulaym heard that the Prophet, may AllÄh Bless him and Grant him Peace, said, “I and the one who guards the orphan, whether for himself or for someone else, will be like these two in the Garden, when he has taqwa,” while indicating with his middle and index fingers.
May AllÄh, The One Who Befriends the righteous, Send His Richest Peace and Blessings Upon our Holy Prophet Muhammad and On his family and companions, as much and as often as AllÄh Wills.
AllÄh, The One Who Is Sufficient For those who put their trust in Him, Had Accepted our prayers and Granted our want through the barakah of our Beloved Prophet Muhammad .
I’ve been fairly constant about wearing a turban during ’ibÄdÄt since.
Dear Elanora,
You seem to desperately wanting to believe in everything you say. Please refrain from commenting on anything Hindu. You have no realization from a religion that is peaceful, and spirituality that comes from following 1000′s of years. Islam is a young religion and is undergoing the chaos that it needs to refine to exist into the future. How can you laugh off the list that the Infidel Alliance has published regarding Islam’s violent deeds on practically every other communicty. In all honesty he has left a lot of the gruesome details out. The scores of forced rapes and conversions and the defaced dieties annd the destroyed temples are testimony to your violent religion. You probably are one of the very few who is not violent and has no violent thoughts against other religions. If you are truly non-violent and appear to be sane like your posting suggests you are a practising Hindu (unknowingly so;). However you are protesting the innocence of Islam way too much. The facts are there…. So what are you upto?
Sincerely,
Another Non-believer in Islam scared to put my name for fear of retaliation