Frustration abounds in Arab world over Swiss minaret ban
Nov 30th, 2009 | By Joseph Mayton | Category: Europe, Featured, News
CAIRO: Osama Yussif cheers in the early morning hours as he watches a replayed European football match. He loves European football, he says, and spends most mornings catching up on the games he missed. But, for the 48-year-old cafe manager, Europe has lost its charm as a place for all. He says that the Swiss move to ban minarets is a sign of more European hatred to come.
“It is really disappointing. My son traveled to Geneva in the 1990s and loved it. He said people were so nice and they treated him well, but that was before Islam became the enemy,” he begins. “What they are doing now is nothing good and after what has happened between us and them in recent years, it is shocking.”
He was referring to Switzerland’s move to ban minarets from its skylines. Despite calls by businessmen, religious leaders and government officials, 57 percent of Swiss voters supported the referendum to ban Islamic minarets in the country, which is already being seen as a move against the Islamic world. For Yussif, he blames the radicalization of European society against Muslims as the cause for the ban.
“Why are they so afraid of us? They are taking their fear out on the majority of people who believe in a free society and this is really causing a lot of people to hate Europeans,” he added.
The direct democracy referendum inspired by the right-wing movement in the country, with opposition being led by the German-speaking portion of the country. There was sense that in the cities, especially Geneva, home to the United Nations offices, voters rejected the ban by nearly 60 percent.
Turnout in the vote was at 53 percent, a low number by Swiss standards. Those against the measure said this was a reflection of the apathy of young people in caring about the future of the country. But for the conservative segments of society, the vote galvanized a massive turnout, which ultimately voted for the ban.
Amnesty International said in a statement shortly after the vote on Sunday that the banning of minarets in the European country is a violation of freedom of religion and should be overturned immediately. They said that it violates the prohibition of discrimination on the basis of religious belief as established by a number of international human rights agreements to which Switzerland is a party to.
“The yes vote comes as a surprise and a great disappointment. That Switzerland, a country with a long tradition of religious tolerance and the provision of refuge to the persecuted, should have accepted such a grotesquely discriminatory proposal is shocking indeed,†said David Diaz-Jogeix, Europe and Central Asia Deputy Programme Director at Amnesty International.
On the popular social-networking site Twitter, activists and commentators were quick to argue the banning shows that “Switzerland is a racist country,” as one writer commented. They believe the move will do little to ease the growing tensions between Europe and the Islamic world, which has been at odds in recent years following the September 11 attacks, the Danish cartoon controversy and the recent murder of Egyptian Marwa el-Sherbini in a German courtroom.
Bikya Masr received an email from a man living in Switzerland who wrote “you do have to admit that it’s pretty hard to have a nap if there’s one next to your house. Be honest.” It shows that there is real support for the banning.
Ironically, there are only four minarets in existence in Switzerland and the vote means they and any future projects will be dismantled. The referendum was initiated by the nationalist Swiss People’s Party (SVP), the largest group in the federal parliament, after residents opposed the construction of a minaret in Langenthal, north of Bern.
For Arabs living in Europe, the move has left them questioning why. Ismail Ezzidine, a Moroccan writer based in Paris, says that if they are going to ban minarets, “they should also ban church steeples and the bell ringing that goes on almost daily.” He argues that if the argument is truly about the annoyance of sound, then churches should be held responsible.
“If the Swiss people are arguing that they don’t want the call to prayer from four minarets, then they should also say they don’t want the bells to be ringing from the churches and ban them. If they don’t it is obviously a racist move to create tension with the Arab population,” he adds.
The vote appalled the Swiss Establishment, which had assumed on the basis of opinion polls that a substantial majority would reject the ban. “This is another blow to the world’s view of Switzerland as a nation of tolerance and civilization,†a senior Swiss diplomat was quoted as saying.
For now, at least, Arabs and Europeans are again at odds over the course of society on the continent. Although it is likely to create more tension between the Muslim minority in Europe and the majority, it will not result in further violence, says Ezzidine.
“I think we are beginning to understand that Europeans hate us, and if we are to change their attitudes, we have to start speaking logically about their abuses. If we do, the world will soon be on our side. We will see,” he says.
BM
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“Bikya Masr received an email from a man living in Switzerland who wrote “you do have to admit that it’s pretty hard to have a nap if there’s one next to your house. Be honest.†It shows that there is real support for the banning.”
This man did not study the proposal correctly. The plan was to allow minarets to be built, not to allow the call to prayer to be heard 5 times a day. According to the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8384835.stm)
“Swiss President Hans-Rudolf Merz said: “Muslims should be able to practice their religion and have access to minarets in Switzerland too. But the call of the muezzin [call to prayer] will not sound here.”
This is a sad day for Switzerland
With due respect, Muslims are good at dashing it out but when time comes for Muslims to receive some of their own medicine, It is automatically called Islamophobia, fear of the minaret and all crap.
For all Muslims objecting to this new law. Please answer this. give one existing Church or Synagogue or Buddhist temple that exist in Saudi Arabia now …..???
They not only not allowed to be built but the old ones were completely destroyed.
I rest my case
1)The Swiss can decide what they want in their own country.
2) In the last 60 years, how many churches have been constructed in the muslim countries? Zero!
3) In the last 60 years, how many mosques have been constructed in Europe? Thousands!
4) Every islamic commentator speaks about “discrimination” but tolerance is a 2-way street.
5) When in Rome, do as the Romans do!
6) Are the muslims in Europe listening?
Tarek beat me to what I wanted to say. I, by no means, support the move by the Swiss government to ban minarets in Switzerland – that said – first how many churches are there in the gulf region – Saudi Arabia? The UAE? Qatar? Kuwait? And second – why is it that in Egypt, where a significant part of its population is Christian, a permit has to be issued to build a church? Is the same done for mosques? Can you unequivocally say that it is just as easy to build a church in Egypt as it is to build a mosque? Why is it that while doing simple renovations (not extensions) to a church bell tower in Egypt, were the builders attacked by a mob of angry Muslims (who by no means represent all Muslims just like the 57.5% Swiss voters who voted against the minarets, don’t represent all Europeans). Let’s not start attacking the Swiss before we look at our own actions in the region against people of our same nationality. As the saying goes.. “People who live in glass houses should not throw stones”
Dear #2 Tarek Al-rashad,
You have hit the nail squarely on the head!! An Islamist in the article, Ismail Ezzidine, reinforces your point with the ironically rich statement: ” if they are going to ban minarets, they should also ban church steeples and the bell ringing that goes on almost daily.†Yeah! Just exactly like is done in Saudi Arabia!
Let’s re-write this headline a bit:
Headline: Frustration abounds in Arab world over Swiss minaret ban
Headline: Frustration abounds in Infidel world over 1400 year Islamic church/synagogue/temple ban
The massive denial, intolerance and hypocracy of Islam never ceases to amaze!
~ The Infidel Alliance
You are correct, but that is a different issue, equally disturbing, but not what the report talks about and should deserve its own look. Thanks
“the vote means they and any future projects will be dismantled.”
This is not true; existing minarets will not be dismantled.
“The referendum was initiated by the nationalist Swiss People’s Party (SVP).”
Although the SVP gave the initiative its support and is to blame for it, it did not initiate it. Rather, it was a small group of SVP parliamentarians and party activists who launched and campaigned for the initiative. Once again, get your facts right.
As for the charming Mr. Ezzidine, who brilliantly mirrors the “us-vs-them” siege mentality of the European scaremongers, I would have hoped that you would have found a more balanced source to quote.
I usually quite like your website, but it seems that you have let your steady hand slip on this non-Egyptian topic. Stick to what you’re good at, I’d say.
It is good information, and thanks for this. The SVP did initiate it, as your comment says – logic, we remind you. We tried to get a Swiss person to respond, but all we got was the one in the article. What do you think is needed? An argument for the ban? I think it was said quite nicely by the man we quote. thanks though and feel free to keep the ideas flowing.
I’m extremely happy to hear about this, and Muslims need to stop complaining when they are treated the same way they treat others. I don’t know how people have the nerve to complain about this…
It is interesting to see that many are defending the Swiss action by the Saudi behaviors
Since 9/11, the western civilization has lost the intellectual advantage and arguments they always claimed against the totalitarian regimes (Arab among them) as they have mirrored all the totalitarian principles.
It is a long list of the lost basic principles and rights such as religious tolerance, civil rights, human rights, privacy, rule of law, freedom of association etc ….
Meanwhile they picked some of the worst behaviors such as unlawful detention, torture, superficial reasoning (ex. finding a relation between extremism and minarets or Hejaab), collective punishments, military intervention, etc…..
Two wrongs never make a right and Islam is here to stay, it is ¼ of the world population and the more we keep this artificial war of civilizations, the faster it will burn all of us.
Mohajer Masry
Where was the Arab world’s frustration when girls’ schools were bombed in pakistan, homosexuals were executed in nigeria, dozens were killed over a cartoon, young girls were stoned to death, women were sexually assaulted on the streets of cairo, coptic girls were kidnapped in southern egypt, women in afghanistan were setting themselves on fire to escape their abusive husbands, and other atrocities perpetrated in the name of islam?
When the rights of women and minorities in their own communities are trampled on these groups are silent. However, when a european country takes a stand against fundamentalism there is outrage.
Though I see this decision as unfair, I totally understand it. Muslims are a minority in Switzerland, and it is only normal that the needs of the majority predominate. I can understand the fear of the Swiss people of the rapid spreading of a culture that is largely alien to their own. If I were a Swiss person, I would probably be afraid too. Muslims in Egypt would undoubtedly refuse a decision to allow the building of more churches. In Switzerland, there were 43% who voted AGAINST the minaret ban, that would not happen here in Egypt, where most people would vote for a church ban.
A minority must suffer some unfair treatment anywhere in the world, and they must accept it. Just like a Copt in Egypt may not be entirely happy, Muslims in Switzerland must learn to accept this, as I would if I were living in Switzerland.
“A minority must suffer some unfair treatment anywhere in the world, and they must accept it. Just like a Copt in Egypt may not be entirely happy, Muslims in Switzerland must learn to accept this, as I would if I were living in Switzerland.”
Egyptian, are you serious? What low standards you have. Minorities do not have to, and should not accept any substandard lives. Just like the majority, they are citizens and are entitled to the same rights. These are very basic human rights.
I disagree with Switzerland, but still your comparison is disturbing. To ban minarets is very different from banning Churches. One is simply banning a part of a building structure that is suggestive of a religion, the other infringes on one’s right to worship. Now think, what if Switzerland banned the building of mosques, except with presidential decree? What would you think of that? Pretty crappy, right?!
Well then, welcome to Egypt.
The situations between the Copts in Egypt and the Muslims in Switzerland is not at all analogous and it is ignorant to draw such parallels. The Copts are native to Egypt, they built the Egyptian civilization and have roots in the country that go far beyond that of the Arab invaders. While the Muslims in Switzerland have only arrived in the past few decades and have resisted to assimilate into the cultural they choose to live in.
I have always been astounded by the stupidity of Egyptians who want to praise their glorious past, ancient learning, and architectural achievements, while they subjugate and demean the people who gave it to them.
Please go look at the Pyramids then tell the Copts that they should just deal with discrimination because they are a minority.
To ed:
“Please go look at the Pyramids then tell the Copts that they should just deal with discrimination because they are a minority.”
Get your history straight. The pyramids were built by the Pharaohs, not by the Christians. The pyramids were built 5000 years ago before Christianity even existed. Ancient Egyptian civilization was built by the Pharaohs, who were not Christians, but worshipped the sun god Ra and a multitude of other gods. Any elementary school child will tell you who built the pyramids and ancient Egyptian civilization. Even Copts know better than to use such an ignorant argument.
I in no way intend to demean or subjugate the Copts; nor do I intend to make an argument for the Muslims, but please get your historical facts straight before calling others ignorant.
This “native people” claim is not new. The people of Egypt today are not from any single bloodline, and you cannot call the Muslims invaders or natives and neither can be said of the Copts. Every Egyptian today is a descendant of the Pharaohs, Romans, Greeks, Mongols, Spaniards, French, British, Ottomans and the original Copts of Egypt.
Any minority suffers the natural effects of being a minority and this is to be expected. The American Indians were the native people of the USA, but that didn’t turn out too well.
I praise the Swiss for their tolerance, that despite their fear of a culture alien to them, 43% of them had no problem with minarets being built. That is far more tolerant than I could say for Egypt. But a minority is a minority, and it is only natural that the needs of the majority should take precedence.
Continuation of my last comment:
And I don’t mean that the Copts should suffer the same fate of the American Indians, before someone starts putting words into my mouth. I believe they should receive whatever rights they are not getting and am totally against anyone demeaning or degrading them.
But that is what I believe, not the reality.
Being Swiss I have to say that I’m sadened that my folks have listened to the panic creators and Islamophobes. It is truly a sad day for the quite tolerant although guarded society into which I was born.
Having said that I’d like to highlight a few facts which make the success of the fearmongers not acceptable but may be one can follow it … somehow.
The large part of Muslims in Switzerland stems from Lebanon, Anatolia (Turkey) and from the Balkan; a lesser part from the Maghreb States. The Lebanese became (in)famous some 25 – 30 years ago through the so-called “Lebanese Connection†= drug dealers. Practically every dealer in Zurich Platzspitz (also known as “needle park†because of all the drug addicts) who was known and/or caught was Lebanese. The big Swiss business men behind it … well they are still free.
The Turkish immigrants were simple labourers with little education who just wanted a better life – which was offered by Swiss companies seeking to recruit additional (and cheap) work force which was not available in Switzerland.
The “Balkans†(ex-Jugoslavian and Albanian) were the next addition with their own set of problems.
It is an undeniable fact that the absolute majority (some 75%) of inmates in Swiss prisons are foreigners, mainly from the Balkans (a mix of religions but nobody cares for these details). The Lebanese were mainly Christians, nobody cared about this detail either.
In addition the Swissies are faced with the problem that those “foreign†families get children who need to go to school. The trend in Swiss families is to have less and less children (average less than 2 per couple). It follows by logic that the foreign children are often outnumbering the Swissies. Add to that that Mama and Papa more often then not speak just basic Swiss German or German the child can not really follow the lessons and the standard goes down.
This are only some of the main problems.
Take this and mix it together with the Xenophobia of the rightist SPD, add some Islamophobia to it as a topping and you get the mix out of witch the shameful referendum was born and sold to the ordinary Swiss. The result of Sunday’s vote is the result of a successful propaganda which played on the inherent fears of every person that “his†country i.e. his identification, his culture and tradition, is taken away from him.
We had the same problems when the wave of Italians came. Then the saying was: “lock away your wife, daughter, sisterâ€. Then the Spaniards came and again the same. But it was not so scary as the culture and belief was the same. Then the Turkish people came and it suddenly started looking different. A few years down the road we realized though, that we can also live together with these “stranger†people.
Then the “globalization†came, the wars, the mingeling in other countries affairs and Switzerland – having quite a tradition as a safe haven for refugees (except during WWII) – opened his borders and took many in. Many came and with them the criminals too.
Suddenly it started looking different, scary, ominous as far as the average Swiss was concerned. Sadly, we failed to open our minds and our hearts to really help them integrate and to be consequent and throw out the bad guys.
Equally sad, many of the foreigners did not want to integrate. They only got a “Saisonier†status which meant, they could stay for one saison and had to live again before one year had passed – so why make an effort? They where not allowed to have their families with them. Fortunately, a few years ago this permit was abolished. Against staunch opposition I shall add. But then it was already too late. Too many of the foreigners felt not really wanted as individuals, just as cheap work force.
And then we had some Muslims who didn’t understand that the Civil Law on which the Swiss society is based today applies to all. A few cases (6 if I remember correctly) didn’t want to send their girls to mixed swimming classes in school (obligatory) and went to court. Naturally their case was a lost case which in my eyes was correct. The country’s law applies to everybody living there. Like the laws of Egypt applies to everybody living here, or Israel, or America – there is not dipute on this matter.
These are only a few of the problems which come to my mind right now.
Things started getting hot and culminated in this referendum which in my opinion is totally against the constitution.
The mistake of the Muslim community is that they trusted the polls as well as had confidence in the system. And slept most of the time. Simply did not do enough positive propaganda.
Whereas Dr. Blocher and his party was active on every front and on every “cow dung heap†(Swiss saying).
The result … misery, disbelief and long faces. And the hope that the Federal Court in Lausanne might overturn it.
I do hope that the lessons are learned and we can move together forward.
That at least one or two attacks by “Muslims” have to follow goes without saying to prove the point that these Muslims are a dangerous bunch …
Joseph Mayton errs when he writes that the existing minarets will be dismantled. The referendum did not call for this, they will stay. But let me just add a few of my thoughts:
Hindus were and are allowed to build their temples in Switzerland. A culture totally foreign to us and on top of it – according to Christian teachings – not “even†a religion. But I’m happy for them that the “freedom of religion and expression†is applied as written down in our constitution.
The Scientologists – a heavily criticized cult– could build their temples of worship too. A group of believers who’s aims and “ideology†are ever so often a hot discussion topic. They too have their places and nobdy is objecting.
I can’t help but wonder when I read such ignorant statements as I copied below as they show clearly that the writers have neither a clue nor an insight nor are they really interested in knowing how their Christian brethren are living and/or treated in Islamic countries. All they’re interested in is bashing Islam and inciting against it: I read:
“in the last 60 years, how many churches have been constructed in the muslim countries? Zero!â€
“…give one existing Church or Synagogue or Buddhist temple that exists in Saudi Arabia now …..???
“frustration abounds in Infidel world over 1400 year Islamic church/synagogue/temple banâ€
I do not address the many churches in Egypt because the Christian minority as well as the Protestants are first and foremost Egyptians (not foreigners) and then their religious denomination follows – not the other way around. For the very same reason I do not address the many churches in predominantly Muslim Khartoum as the Christians there are Sudanese people too.
Let me just address the few Islamic countries of which I know personally and which are 100 % Muslim countries.
The UAE have built countless churches over the last 30 years for different denominations but mainly catholic. The then biggest one was built in the late 80’s in Abu Dhabi by the Philippine community. Almost half way through the project they run out of money. The late Sheikh Zayed Al Nahyan, then President of the UAE, chipped in and paid for the rest of the construction in order for it to be finished and for the people to have their place of worship. Do I need to mention that Sheikh Zayed was a Muslim?
The same applies to Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait and Oman. All of them are 100 % islamic countries. Yet they built places of worship for a community of expats who are only on temporary basis in their countries. And I shall add that the churches are complete with steeples and bells where the construction permit requested this.
As for Saudi – they have come around in so far that there are 11 inofficial places of worship for Christians in Jeddah and Riyadh; inofficial as they don’t want to rock the boat. Whether they are even going to have officially churches or not the future only will show.
As for the Far Eastern Muslim countries as well as the ex-Soviet Muslim countries I have to pass as I have never been there. But a call to the respective Embassies should shed some light on the issue. Or a call to the Christian Monitor. That’s how easy it is to find out if one is truly interested in the subject.
If one is only interested in spouting hate and incite then naturally a quick research is not on the books. Then one blabbers any nonsens about “Zeroâ€, “permit” and “1400 years banâ€. And this in light of the fact that the Qu’ran exlicitly demands his followers to respect the people of the books = the Bible and the Tora.
Why do people in the right (sane) frame of mind do this to themselves? Why do they have no qualms in exposing themselves as ignorant and blind followers of a hate cult which has taken over in the past 1 ½ decade? I for one fail to understand it.
What leaves an even bigger questionmark in my mind is the fact that these “concerned Christian brothers and sisters†do not bat an eyelash over the fact that Israel in the more than 60 years of existence has never approved a construction permit for a church or a mosque to be built. Non-Jews are not even allowed residence in Jewish neighborhoods, despite a ruling of the Supreme Court to the contrary (the decision of 1994 is still awaiting implementation). But I guess that’s OK with the Christian brothers … That much for equality.
This discussion here however demonstrates one more time quite clear and easy how much the “Christian West†still believes and adheres to the Master/Servant thinking. We (the West) dictate to you (in this case the Muslim world) that you have to:
- Build and accept our temples of worship which are totally foreign to your culture
- accept our “McDonalds ‘n Coke†culture
- accept our way of dressing incl. women in spaghetti tops and shorts on the streets (not so in Saudi though)
- accommodate our need for pork and alcohol
- etc.
And don’t you ever think of saying No to our demands nor ever ever ask for reciprocity when you come and live and settle in our countries. Because we are after all White and on top of it Christians. You can work here, you can do our dirty work which we don’t want to do any more (like cleaning the butt of our elderlies in the senior homes, changing their pampers and cleaning their vomit), you can clean our houses and hospitals, you can do the construction work in our infrastructure or go in factories and do for 8 ½ hours the same three movements on the assembly streets … etc. … etc. … etc. Because … WE don’t do this dirty work anylonger.
But integrate here and on top of it build mosques WITH minarettes??? Are you crazy or what???
And I don’t really need to emphasize it as it goes without saying: the Muslims are the bad guys in all of this and the terrorists. Who dares to say any different?
Oh and a little minor detail not to be forgotten: the seat of the Bishop of the Arabic Peninsula is Saudi Arabia (Riyadh) from where he visits regularly the other Gulf Countries in his official capacity.
~*~*~
““… why is it that in Egypt, where a significant part of its population is Christian, a permit has to be issued to build a churchâ€
Simply – and the writer knows this – because for every building a construction license is required irrespective of the nature of the building. The same applies every where in the world where the countries have respective laws … “Honnit soit qui mal y pense” one more time!
~*~*~
If it where that it is just a simple case of not knowing I’d be the last one to call anyone an ignoramus. But as this is pure propaganda, hate mongering and incitement against better knowledge of the prevailing facts I think it is important for the genuinly interested readers to set the records straight.
Questions by little John to Papi:
Why is it that the Islamic societies and cultures must accept to have foreign bodies implemented (often by “diplomatic” force) in their midst?
Why is that the Arabic (Islamic and Christian) Societies must accept to have their thousands of years old cultures and traditions destroyed?
Why is it that if they whether or nod they accept every demand like “to roll over, lay down and give in” they are villified, demonized and dehumanised?
Answers Papi: Because they are the Muslims … errhhmmm … I wanted to say … the terrorists and the evil doers.
Says little John: Aha, now I understand!
Dear Eleonora,
You are being completely disingenuous, indeed engaging in taqiyya (Islamic holy perfidy) when you state: “every building a construction license is required irrespective of the nature of the building”.
You know darn well this is not the reason the Christians of Egypt have so much trouble, face so much difficulty in building their churches and practicing their faith.
You know the real reason is that the Christians of Egypt are subjugated dhimmis, relegated to second class citizenship under the guidelines of Islamic Sharia law and the traditions of Islam.
“Dhimmitude” – I encourage everyone to look it up, google it, discover for your self.
~ The Infidel Alliance
(In Memoriam: The countless beautiful young women savagely mutilated in the prime of their lives by Islamo-misogynistic inspired acid attacks….think about it)
The question was:
“… why is it that in Egypt, where a significant part of its population is Christian, a permit has to be issued to build a church?”
The answer was:
“… because for every building a construction license is required irrespective of the nature of the building. The same applies every where in the world where the countries have respective laws.”
Simple and straight forward: 1 question – 1 answer
Maybe I should have added that for every mosque a building license is required too and that it is even more difficult to obtain one? Maybe I should have. But that way I won my bet with respect to the Dhimmi-stuff – thanks
.
Does it come as a surprise that the “twist ‘n turn” starts all over again? Not really. Not only that but one also has the audacity to accuse participants of some obscure “taqiyya” … speaks for itself.
~*~*~
In Memoriam: The countless beautiful HINDU (India), CHRISTIAN (Italy, Spain and Greece up until today – Switzerland is thank God an issue from the 19th and early 20th to mid 20th century – and South Americas) and MUSLIM young women savagely mutilated in the prime of their lives by HINDU, CHRISTIAN and ISLAMO respectively simply MACHO(-misogynistic) inspired acid attacks…. not to forget the IN-LAWS … think about it and stop obfuscating the truth with half-truths and lies.
Dear Administration
Is there a specific reason that my last two postings with respect to the acid attacks resp. the campaigns against them are not published? Please tell me so I can make some adjustments or rephrase where necessary.
Thank you.
Maybe there were too many links? I’ll try again.
The Acid Attacks – which some well-meaning people try to make an Islamic phenomenon too – gives me a chance to put this general info in.
I’m aware of the restrictions placed by the administration with respect to links but maybe this time you can close an eye to it? Would be nice as this is an important issue which has to be stopped. Thank you.
Please check out:
http://www.unfpa.org/public/News/pid/3917
Working to End Acid Attacks in Bangladesh by 2015
Since 1967 – when the first acid attack was registered – they are on the rise.
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/24/acid-attacks-and-ivawa/
Acid Attacks and IVAWA
http://blogs.tampabay.com/photo/2009/11/terrorism-thats-personal.html
Continuation:
http://www.cambodianacidsurvivorscharity.org/
Cambodian Acid Survivors Charity (CASC)
http://corrosion-doctors.org/Acids/acid-attack-1.htm
Occasional acid attacks are committed worldwide, but in India, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China and South Asia in general, Pakistan, Thailand they are relatively “common”. In the South of Italy it used to be one of the favorite revenge weapons of the Mafia as it is still up until today to some extent in Naples by the Comorra.
And then we have campaigns such as this:
Why We Must Stop CEDAW and I-VAWA
http://www.mediaradar.org/docs/RADARflyer-Why-Stop-CEDAW-IVAWA.pdf
CEDAW stands for the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women and IVAWA stands for International Violence Against Women Act.
There are tremendous efforts under way to stop this 2 bills from being ratified by the US Senate … have this folks over there in the US all become Muslims???
~*~*~
BUT if somebody wants to help – please go to the following website http://www.womenthrive.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=133 and make a difference rather than just talk!
Dear Eleonora,
Your explanation of Islam is excellent , and I believe that all the other religions too are peaceful in Principal. I am talking about many Muslims in Egypt and around the world turned into fanatics. The people judge Islam by the act of Muslims and not about what about what is in the Koran. In the last few years the reputation is not good and the people who committed terror in the name Islam are many.
I was born Muslim in Egypt and I experienced the harassment that the government of Egypt inflect upon the Coptic community, the sexual harassment and violence towards women and the injustice done by the government to its own people.
Copts having a hard time repairing, expanding or building new churches. They are attacked by Muslims if they try to get together to pray in a house since they don’t have enough churches (while Muslims are allowed to pray in the streets and everywhere), they get attacked by Muslims. The Muslim say they were defending their religion! Was the religion attacked when bunch of people pray in peace. Actually the police wonder of why they gather to pray in someone house. Many Cop ts are stoned and their property are destroyed by Muslims and they get away with it. The government build a Mosque in front or near every church for intimidation purposes.
In regard to violence against women, it is despicable. Kids feel free to stone, harass women when ever they choose. Women are grouped, pulled, kidnapped, raped and killed. I left my wife 15 min in a parked car in the street, only to come and find kids shaking the car to frighten her, and she was frightened. I am glad that you don’t have good command of the Arabic language, other wise the words that these guys say to you if you walk the streets will burn ears. They the same stuff while I am walking with my forging Muslim wife. You could have walked these streets alone without fear at night 50 years ago.
Street animals are not safe either. Kids torture dogs, cats and stone them just for fun. There is so much violence embedded in them.
Garbage accumulated in the streets and people live among them and it became a normal thing. They got used to it and never notice it anymore. During the King and EVIL English occupation, the streets were safe and clean. When I told the Imam in the Mosque near by our condo to say something about cleanliness and it is essential part of the faith. He did like it and became defensive.
Emergency laws for more than quarter of the century, corruption in every place. Would you really describe Egypt as an example of a Muslim country, it is an example of how greed, ignorance and corruption can destroy a good quality country and the value of its people in few years.
You don’t have to take my word for the above. It is all written in the ELMASRY, ELDEST OR and other newspapers. The west knows all these things about us and more.
That is one of many reasons of why they are scared from us.
The first step in solving any problem as to admit that there is a problem. As long as we bury our head in the sand , we will not fix anything. We have to agree with some of the stuff that has been said around hear, there is smoke without fire.
The west was very generous to accept us into their countries (though I don’t believe in borders). They gave us jobs, education, healthy live, security, and most of all DEMOCRACY and FREEDOM. They fought for years among themselves until they realized that freedom and democracy is the solution. We abused this freedom because we did not understand it. We resist assimilation and integration, we preferred desegregation. The majority migrated for better jobs and for monetary reasons, some for higher education and seldom for freedom and democracy, since no one understand it (remember Voltaire). We migrated from no system to a system, and from no freedom and dictatorship to democracy in few hours, it is quite a shock and need adjustment. For some reason the west did not think about this problem. They should have involved us in an extensive educational courses and will prepare us for this move.
The west (in the smaller countries) are afraid that our numbers are going to increase until we become the majority. The freedom and the democracy of the country will allow us to vote and take control of it. At that time we will practice the same way as our tyrants did and still do, because we resisted assimilation and did not learn @#$% from them. We will become again as our tyrants (Mubark, King Fahad, Khdafi…etc), and destroy the country and our kids will move to the next one. That is their nightmare and can be true.
Simply, we are not prepared to venture into a Democratic and fresocietyty without extensive preparation. I don’t blame the west. I had difficultassimilatingid though I have been raised well by my European mother (became Muslim too), who taught me to fight for justice. It was not easy at all, it is another ball game. You can not teach Democracy and freedom, you have to earn it.
I believed every word you said in the last few days, until you said “every building a construction license is required irrespective of the nature of the building.” That implies that the Egyptian government is really scientific enough to study each application to build or expand a church or not, and what its effect on the environment, which is not true. The Egyptian governmenintimidatete the Copts by turning down building permits and setting a bad example to the rest of the ignorant Egyptian (and they are many) to further attack thCop tsts. I hope you clarify your statement, because it sound like you support the Egyptian government in that particular issue. It really imply that you agree with them and I hope you don’t. Any true Muslim should not support tyrants, because they don’t follow the teaching of Islam that they claim they are part of it.
The Democratic Swiss government voted for building Mosques without minaret. Nothing wrong with that. We have to respect the decision of the majority. Minarets are are art and few people knows about it. Different periods in Islam has different kind and shape of minarets. Currently they build them without considering these artistic and historic facts. I am not expert in Islam, but I would like to let the readers knows that only Sunni Muslims believe in the Hadith (Bokary…etc) other Muslims believe only in just Koran and Egyptian Sunni do not tolerate others and consider them non-Muslim and attack them too. The Egyptian government will not allow having any non-Sunni Mosques too.
(Excuse my English, its my third language)
Dear Charles – yr comment #26
First of all: don’t worry about your English – I wish my arabic is as excellent ïŠ.
I have written in previous forums of BM my view of this government and have no problems repeating it (hope you come and visit me in Kanater?): it’s is corrupt, full of nepotism, sells out this beautiful country and gives a damn about the wellfare of the people. And this goes for the previous one too. I hope I have made myself clear.
BUT I always make a big difference between governments and people i.e. I attack polit-America, polit-Israel, polit-Egypt et al (if there is a reason) and always exclude their people as I know too many of them from all walks of life who are decent human beings. We may differ on things but we disagree amicably as the underlying fabric is an honest empathy. Having said that, let me pick-up a few of your lines.
The harassment of people is omnipresent. Not only Copts, not only Muslims, the Egyptian people as a whole are harassed and opressed since centuries and it’s getting worse. Bishop W. stated this very clearly some years ago when asked in an interview whether Copts are harassed or not. The security forces of Europe COMBINED are smaller than the one of Egypt. This tells us what?
The religion is only one tool which is used to keep people busy – look how the “little white ghost†(a.k.a. Muslimbrothers) is undusted from time to time while deals are going on behind the scene (see the ammendments to the constitution as well as their photographed visit to the White House through the side door during GWB’s second term). And the issue Copts vs Muslim and vice-versa is not allowed to dye either. Nne of the Copts nor Muslims I know have a religious bone to pick with each other. But what surprises me time and again positively is the knowledge they have about the religion of the other.
Other means to keep Egyptian people busy are the horrendous and worsening traffic, the steadily deteriorating health system, the education system, the garbage collection (especially since it has been “outsourced” to European companies) … you name it. It is all done by intention, plan and the sad fact is: it works. How should it not? It is simply too much for any person to bear.
The government has taken its hands off, shruggs off any responsibility towards its citizens and is busy with business. As our PM Ahmed Nadhif said so clearly: “The government is not your father and motherâ€. Right he is – no parents would be able to see their children in such utter misery and not try everything in their power to aleviate their plight. This goes for education, jobs, garbage, religious friction, etc. There is simply no government! The “enta mish aref ana meen†and the “cosa” reigns.
And all of this has nothing to do with religion. It is blant corruption to the core and in order to secure the personal “achievements†every means and tools are used. The people? Ha, they’re never a factor.
~*~*~
My responses to the “Islam bashers†are to be viewed in the light of their continued and intentional falsifications as we have wittnessed over the past days since this “infidel alliance†and his supporting bunch has appeared, mostly on top of it with Muslim names – to prove what? They don’t even have the gutts to stand by their own names. Statements like “ban of 1’400 years against churches ….†or silly questions like “why do I need a permit to build a church†are just examples. They don’t merit any other answer than the one I gave: every building needs a permit. End of the story. After my answer to “Zero churches in Muslim countries†that person fell silent.
Such kind of “discussions†do not allow any room for finetuning, as these people are neither interested in the truth nor are they interested in any fine differentiations leave alone that they would care about empathy or the effect their propaganda might have on unassuming people who don’t know the Egyptian, Arabic and/or Islamic societies, their structures and their fabrics. I just realize that I have to correct myself – they know the effect they have with their hate and incitement; that’s the reason why they are on the payroll and in the forum to start with.
All they want is agitate and spread the orchestrated hatred against anything that has even just a sniff of Islam. And such endeavours I love to torpedo with facts which everyone can go and check out for him/herself.
~*~*~
As for my Arabic and the harassment – I do understand (unfortunately) enough. But being raised by open-minded parents I have no qualms of addressing these scumbags in the right manner (you may want to see my comments in the women forum). A while ago I had one who kept calling me every two minutes on my mobile. At some point I gave the phone to my husband who offered him a night at the State Security after he told him that we know who he is and where he lives (we did some quick check on the 2 numbers he called from). Ever since I have my peace again.
I think women in the Arabic society should be told open and without false shame how to handle these people. Frankly – women here should be told self-defense as it is in Europe the case. I’m personally convinced if these “men†would have to face some painful hits for their stupid remarks and/or gropping they would re-think. My two housekeepers (both wearing the hijab) carry nails with them in order to keep itchy hands at bay in the public transport. One of them has so far beaten 3 times a man on the bus while people told HER “Ma’alesh ya anissa, kifayya†instead of helping her!!! The nails and the beating is not really an answer but as an interim measure it sure helps
. People don’t want to involve themselves anymore in problems as they have a big enough set of their own. Imagine such a reaction only some 20 years ago – unthinkable!
But the government is to blame for its inactivity and, therefore, complicity in that the police still has the audacity to tell a woman: “ah, nothing really happenedâ€, “never mind†or “you should not wear half sleevesâ€, etc. The very same as it was the case not too long ago in Europe. Education of the police and a rigoros implementation of the existing laws are the only answers. And an adequate punishment as this is not a “gentleman†delict.
~*~*~
“Would you really describe Egypt as an example of a Muslim countryâ€. Naturally not – there is no “Muslim†country as far as I’m concerned. There are people who happen to be in the majority Muslims (and good ones for that matter) who have corrupt governments who call themselves “Muslims†but are by the definition of the Qu’ran infidels. Now I ask you a simple question: who has put these governments in place and – more important – who holds them there?
You say: “The first step in solving any problem as to admit that there is a problem.†People know and admit it – and they are clubbed (figurative speech as well as in reality) and no one listens. The least to listen and allow actions is the so called “West†as democracy and freedom is the last thing they want. It does not serve their interests. That’s a simple fact. Or have you ever heard that freedom and democracy is brought on the back of tanks and the wings of a B52 bomber??
“You can not teach Democracy and freedom, you have to earn it.â€
I disagree with you on that as I believe first in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights before I believe in anything else. Democracy (true democracy!) and freedom are a basic human right and no one should be allowed to touch this or take this away.
Democracy has not to be earned! (BTW it is in the Qu’ran – so much for “Muslim” leaders!) Who is to decide when I have earned democracy?? And who decided that the people in the Middle East or any other place on earth have “earned†dictatorship and opression? And sad as it is (I repeat myself) democracy for the Arab people is the last thing on the agenda of regional powers as well as of the West.
As for the minarets – personally I don’t care whether a mosque has a minaret or not although they look very gracious. But they are nothing but an architectonical amendment to beautify a building.
BUT – I do very much care for equal treatment of ALL citizens.
And that’s where the problem is. If we accept “foreign bodies†into our culture (one of the terms which were used) then we should not accept ANY foreign bodies. We should not accept Hindu temples (of which we have completes ones in Switzerland) nor should we accept synagogues (of which we have too) nor should we accept … I guess you get my point.
As the Swiss thinker and literate Max Frisch said already decades ago: “Wir riefen Arbeitskräfte und es kamen Menschen = we called workforces and human beings cameâ€. We call them in to do the dirty works. Go to a Swiss (or German for that matter) hospital, senior home, hotel, restaurant – the whole cleaning crews are foreigners, mainly Turkish (Muslims). They clean the feces and vomit, handle the garbage and the cleaning. You will not find one single native anymore to do this jobs. The Tamils are known as the “dishwashers†and so on. In other words: they are just good enough to clean our dirt and make our lifes comfortable. That we would socialize with them, help them to integrate does not come to mind. That they are scared – much more than we are scared of them – doesn’t even enter our minds. The come from the known environment into the total unknown. Many of them come on top of it from war torn regions (example: the Balkans) and are traumatized. They are faced with new freedoms, new language, new culture, etc. and nowhere to turn to. This is generalised as they are quite a number of people who make efforts to help them and I don’t want to take the credit away from them. But that’s a minority.
Democracy means that we give everybody the same right. Take as an example France. They banned ALL display of religious affiliations on persons: be it the big Christian Cross around the neck, the Jewish yarmulka on the head, the (no)Islamic hijab, the Sikh turban from public schools and government workplaces. That’s fair and equal treatment. Banning only the yarmulka would be discrimination of one religion and, therefore, would have to be attacked and fought against.
As for belief: I do believe in the Qu’ran and think that’s quite enough
– God will tell me if I was wrong. Personally I also believe that if our fundamentalists with the big beards and ¾ galabeya and the munaqabat would not be so obsessed with … which hand to put over which wile praying … how long the galabeya is … whether to wear gloves or not … if they should look at a woman’s face or not … and if they should cross their feet or not while procasting … but rather remember what Islam is all about – the world would not be scared but would accept us with our belief.
Shame in this respect to the vast majority of the normal Muslims, who do their 5 prayers a day, observe Ramadan and do charity and other than that respect the laws of the society they live in, that they don’t engage more and speak out. For those living under opressive systems I can even understand it. But for the millions and millions who live in free societies … what’s their excuse???
Would we engage more in living and showing to others the true nature and the core message of Islam then we would not have “infidel alliances and its bunch” who can rampage through forums and spread the venom unhindered.
Have a good day and I’d love to read your thoughts and sorry that this got so long.
Dear Elonora,
Thanks for taking the time in replying, and I agree that the situation in EGYPT is a planned operation in principle. Though, I don’t want to give these corrupt Egyptian leaders credit for planning anything. They simply follow orders, and as stupid as they are, they will mess up in implementing these orders.
Since the Egyptian government does not allow building Muslim Shiaa (non-Sunni) Mosques, for sure it will not allow the building of new Coptic churches. Mubarak is trying to hold the stick from the middle between the west and the fanatics. Eventually, both sides will have enough of his tricks.
However, things can go wrong as it happened in the case of Mr. SADAM of Iraq. Egypt is pretending its doing its share of the peace process by following instruction. But in fact it is delaying the process and buying more time til the next presidential election.
Of course they do teach Democracy in school and colleges, but what I meant, it will be difficult teaching it to that have different core value. The relation between men and women, husband and wife, parents and children are just an example. How can we teach kindness to kids that grown up torturing stray animals. Some of my well educated immigrants, wonder of why taking pets to the Vets, why not just get rid of them and new fresh healthy pets. The 1952 revolution (Kamal El-Din Hussein, Minister of Education) removed, the study of reasoning, logic and rationale from the curriculum, because it interfere with the teaching of Islam (in his opinion). It will take generation to repair the damage done Why don’t we just get by the revolution. Switzerland, want limit these activity, but restricted by its Democracy and the freedom that they still enjoy.
like I mentioned earlier that Koran is fine, no religion teaches violence or hatred, but the majority of our Egyptian Muslims misunderstand it. If the message is good, but the people do not understand it, what should be the solution to stop these violence. We can’t modify the Koran because it the word of God, we can’t modify the Hadith, because it is the word of Mohamed. Should we publish new up to date interpretation of Koran and teach it, people will not follow it. When Sheik ALAZHAR banned the Niquab from certain places, the miss guided Muslims attacked him. What do you think we should do to present the real Islam?
That is why the west are trying to limit the spread of a good thing that can be easily misunderstood. They will eventually stop it, if we will not be able reteach the people.
In theory Islam is fine, but we are not dealing with theories, we are dealing with irrational angry mob of fanatics. We also don’t know whom they are, and what trigger them to suddenly perform their violent act (as in Major/ Nidal case).
The west is patiently waiting for us to find answers to these questions and resolve the problem. However, our leaders are busy with other more important stuff as Mr. Sadam was.
Have a great evening,
Dear Charles
You’re right they’re not good at planning at all – don’t forget they’re “government”
. But the Puppet Masters are and they will not allow any mess-up of their agenda.
With respect to the churches you are fortunately wrong. 2 km away from where we live a big Copic church has just been inaugurated and another one was finished a while ago in Zahara el Maadi. Another one in 6th of October is expanding. These are just the ones I know personally. So it doesn’t look as bleak as it is portrayed. But I guess what has to be accepted and is viewed as OK for Switzerland (curbing the excessiv demands of minorities) has to be accepted for any other country too as long as the actions taken are WITHIN a democratic framework. And that is what is lacking – but for all people of Egypt. That’s what has to be branded and what needs to be changed.
One note to the votes in Switzerland: after all is over and divided into boxes it is sad to say that those who rejected the initiative are the mainly Protestant cantons whereas the Catholic cantons accepted it. So much for Christian-Catholic fundamentalists. But I guess that’s OK as it is Christian …? The normal Muslims were clearly asleep. We cannot expect that Europeans are taking care of explaining and elaborating on Islam – we have to do this ourselves and … almost nothing is done.
As for the religious issue: the allout focus today is on Islam and its extremists respectively. The overwhelming masses of normal Muslims (I have come to dislike the word “moderate†as it is used today for those who are corrupt and comply with the demands of the political “Westâ€) who simply want to live their lifes according to their belief and within the laws is ignored.
What we tend to overlook in this staged Islamophobia are the extremists on the other side – be it in Judaism and much more so in Christianity. If you care to look at http://www.alternet.org they have a number of good articles, i.e. “Cult of Conservative Christian GOPers Backs Death Penalty for Gays With HIVâ€, “Christian Cowards: Why Don’t Evangelical Leaders Condemn the Hate Spouted by Right-Wingers [at Pres. Obama]â€, “Does the Vatican Have a Say in Your Health Decisions?â€. As BM does not allow too many links I suggest you go on their website if you’re interested and use the search function with the mentioned titles. I don’t want to go into Judaism as they are a minority and have enough bad propaganda.
If we normal people are not careful and voice our opposition to this general “religious craze” than we all get “smashed between the wheels.â€
Look at Egypt: Al Azhar was in the 19th and until middle of the 20th century a center for the “open Islamâ€. Today, thanks to its close affiliation with the government, it has become slow and ineffective. Egypt was an open society. We had the first cinema, the first woman in parliament and as the first muslim country women’s right to vote. Mind you, in Switzerland we got it only in 1971! If you would have told an Egyptian woman 30 years ago to cover her face she would have laughed at you, am I right or not? Today we have 17 (!) Saudi TV channels who are propagating this silly, narrow-minded version of Islam … which has nothing to do with Islam and everything with an archaic-patriarchic society miss-using a religion.
You say: “How can we teach kindness to kids that grown up torturing stray animals.†Why should they be kind to animals if they see how the human beings are treated? It goes always back to the same source which needs to be changed and which the “West†is so eager to keep in power. Not only in Egypt but in the whole of the Middle East as it serves their interests best.
The curbing of irrational fanatics: as long as the majority of the (poor) masses have no hope and quite obvious no future the fanatics will always find open ears for their irresponsible promisses and requests. Therefore, as long as the government does not remember its first and foremost duty – namely the wellfare and wellbeing of its citizens – the extremists will have an excellent ground to “blossomâ€. Injustice always creates extremism. They are the ones who aleviate to some extent the plight of the poor, they help them in their misery and it is a normal phenomenon which we have seen throughout all religions and centuries that in time of despair and hopelessness one turns to religion in order not to collaps mentally and psychologically.
It is a very dangerous game the “West†and the tyrannts are playing and it can go terribly wrong at any moment in time. And it cannot be that I’m the only one seeing it … so why is nothing done to counter it as long as there is some time left (so I hope)?
And yes, you’re right – our (non)leaders are busy catering to the needs and dancing to the tunes of the Puppet Masters. We, the people, have to shake off our apathy and have to start taking an active interest in the wellbeing of our society again and should stop leaving it to others – be it leaders, religions or idelogies.
Take care for now
Hi Leonora,
You said, “With respect to the churches you are fortunately wrong”
Your answer reminded me of another situation in a different conversation in a different time(60,s), in a different country(USA). Alabamian was explaining that they don’t discriminate against Blacks. He pointed at the company’s building (seven story high). He said we have a black man in the third floor and another one in the 5th floor. I am sure they are building some churches, but not enough for the number of Copts. By the way I don’t know who pay for building churches and mosques, and the salary of Priests and Sheiks?
We are talking about principles. The government is making it difficult for everyone in Egypt and in particularly Copts, women and minorities. They are not just doing nothing. They are allowing bad things to happen to them. The policy of making difficult to build churches is wrong and not even allowing copts to gather together and worship in someone house, while allowing Muslims to even block roads and streets to pray on them is wrong too.
I am just looking for equality, and evenness in treatment to all Egyptian disregard to their background, though I believe all worship places, cemeteries and golf grounds are waste of real estate. Religion is a personal choice and a private matter and should practiced in privacy without involving others. Whether my opinion is right or wrong, I am not imposing it on any one.
Have a nice evening.